| Author | Message | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751)
Rating: N/A |
One day, hopefully not too far away I plan on building a shop to make all of your jaws drop!!!  Anyhow obviously in this masterpiece of building I'm going to have a pit to park my bus over and work on her. So who builds the best pit system i.e. the little rail things for the oil pan and jacks to ride on. Not that I'm planning on buying one but I need to see who builds the stoutest one around so I can modify and upgrade it as needed to fit my application. So in responding any outfits that have good pics would be helpfull. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
My first step on doing this would have to be to find a shop that has one I liked first... then ask them who did the contract work to install it and work your way up that way. They aren't cheap though. -Kevin | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
I rented a trencher & dug two paralel ditches & filled them with concrete | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Simplicity has its advantages. -Kevin | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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Sudden death is pretty simple. Gary | ||
| mel 4104 Rating: N/A |
i did mine the easy way, took the back hoe to the side of the shop where there is a drop off band and just trenched in about 18 ft. got the loan of a set of forms cemented in the bottom the put the forms up for the sides and the end leaving a hole to run any plastic conduit to it , mixed the concret ,2 days later stripped the forms and waited 10 days and back filled the outer sides and put the slabes to drive on on each side .total cost less than $300 and 2 weeks of part time working on it. but it is not a pit so all the gov. inspectors have no say over it as one end is open, no need for vents and explosion proof lites and exaust fans, very simple and does not take up a lot of space, i just park a piece of equipment over it when not being used. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello Nick. No kidding, make sure you build in a good exhaust to the bottom of your pit, and you have to build it right or your bus will collapse or spread the walls over time. Bottom of pit collects bad gases, and propane from your leaking BBQ... Good to think about a drain and a sump pump to drain it - you'll want to wash the shop and the pit out peridically... Some electricity and some shop air down there would be nice - put in some bigger conduit and pull a hose and the wires through - can't replace rotted air pipe set in concrete... Making up some wood covers so you don't walk into it when it is open is a good thing too. You wonder how the heck someone could walk off the edge until it happens to you! I like the open ended slope idea, Mel!! I have the good fortune of having that option available, if I orient the parking spot the right way. Food for thought! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| mel 4104 Rating: N/A |
the good thing about it being open ended is the fact that the gov. inspectors cannot call it a pit ,it is a trench which they have no control over the construction of just build the walls strong with lots of re bar or mesh , any old heavy steel wire chopped into lengths works. i havy 1,000# mixed in mine . i just gathered all the old scrap laying around the yard then layed some mesh wire ove it and poured the concret over top. to check it out for strength we moved a piece of eq. that weighs over 50 ton over it and it passed the test. | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751)
Rating: N/A |
I'm not to worried about the gov getting into it but I hadn't thought about gases building up in the pit, thanks Buswarrior. I had thought about getting water out and how I get that done will depend on final location. I really don't think the gov will really care or for that matter know what I'm doing in my personal shop on my place that I'm not going to advertise that I'm building. Know friends that have just a plain pit, no fans, no nothin, with no big brother trouble. Thanks for the input everyone. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Seriously, nobody has mentioned the structural issues with a pit? It's the "Ends" that keep the walls from flopping together squashing whoever is in the pit like a bug. Get a structural engineer in on this or they will interr your body with a srynge. Gary | ||
| R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
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>Get a structural engineer in on this or they >will interr your body with a srynge. Give me a break already! Run rebar L's from the shop floor into the pit sidewalls. Run the same L's from the sidewalls into the pit floor. Use 1/2" rebar on a 1' square grid in the walls and floor of the pit. My personal preference is for 1/2" rebar on the same 1' grid throughout the shop floor but some will tell you that is overkill. No inguneers required. It's basic concrete - VERY basic concrete - not rocket science. | ||
| bruce king
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RJ -- take some cardboard. Bend it into an L shape. Notice that the resistance as you bend it is pretty small. Now take some cardboard. Bend it into a box. Notice how resistant it is to crushing forces? Take the top off the box. See any changes in the structure? Take one end off... got my point? | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
I was a structural steel fabricator in another life. I have seen pits built, but I will be the first to confess that I didn't pay attention (Obviously didn't know about the BNO forum then). All I remember is a whole lot of fortification goes into a commercial pit. All I know for certain is that I don't want to climb into something that has twenty-freaking-tons parked over it unless I have some level of confidence that gravity wont play any nasty tricks on me. Of course, it's a free country and anyone is free to follow the "If I don't know anty better it must not be a problem" philosophy. Hell it does wonders for the gene pool. Gary | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
bruce.... my pit has been in for 15 years....get my point | ||
| Gene Lewis (Genelewis)
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Nick; Check out these sites -- these may give U some ideas. http://www.guycarrier.com/bus/default.htm http://www.utbiz.com/shop/ http://www.premierpits.mbefabs.com/welcome.htm Happy Busing. Enjoying the journey in NC, Gene - 05 Eagle | ||
| R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Rating: N/A |
Bruce AFAIK the plan is to build with concrete, not cardboard. The steel (rebar) provides tensile strength; the concrete provides compressive strength. That's why they call it "reinforced concrete" because, by itself, concrete has good compressive strength but next to no tensile strength. As long as the steel ties the walls of the pit into the floor slab, it is not an open top box, as you attempted to suggest. The bottom of the box is closed by the floor in the pit. The top is bounded and anchored by the floor slab. Gary Send me a list of people crushed by imploding shop pits and I will accept that it is a major problem. Until then it is a relatively trivial exercise in concrete. 2D If I was starting from scratch, that's exactly how I would do it. Some people like making life way too complicated. | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
only have one complaint...rattlesnakes like it | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Lets examine this a little bit closer, guys. They call it plastic cement because it isn't rigid like a diamond. A 40' conversion, braggin that it has 45,000+# on 3 axles intended to handle only 42K will (elementary trig here) impose about a 50% side load on the upper walls of the pit. I remember concrete is great in compression but there's tension going on as well. In addition to carrying your rebar pattern through from the floor to the pit walls and down to the pit floor, I feel you'd be prudent if you installed a perimeter structure to handle the side loads the drivers are going to impose on the edge of that pit. Something like 4 strands of 1/2" rebar caged with 8" square "D" rings. More or less the 12" x 12" rim berm they put around pools sounds good to me but I'm known for overbuilding. I know steel is expensive and concrete is high but where will you be expense wise if your guestimate comes up short. Before you go ballistic on my suggestion, should anyone take great umbrage to my back fence design, ask me politely, I could consult with a Civil Egr. So, don't get angry, get curious. Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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There's a lot involved with footings below the load bearing concrete the perimeter anchors to the footings, spreaders at the ends, etc... There was a few discussions about this elsewhere, but I can't dig anything up on it. I'm the last guy to run to City Hall for the building inspector, but I've also seen a lot of cobbed up stuff go bad. I've had fully loaded trucks shift on the jackstands while I was welding the tags back together. I can move pretty fast when motivated. Working under heavy stuff makes me real cautious. Gary | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Marc - I'd go further with 12" by 30" rim w/ 8 - 5/8" rebar caged on well compacted base - Niles | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Niles, Thank you for your support! (LOL !!) [I think something along the lines of your suggestion would be particularly important in the longer pits! ] | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I find it hard to imagine the kind of work that would be of an ongoing, or repeative, nature that would ever justify the expense of building a pit. It would seem that any major project would be a one time undertaking, such as rebuilding the front end. And even for that most of the work does not require a pit. Run up blocks should be, in my opinion, all that ever would be needed. 20 lubes and oil changes is probably more than the majority of bus nuts will require and if you supply the oil would cost peanuts at a truck stop when compared to what the expense of a lube pit is. Can someone please try and educate me? Be nice now guys and gals. I am not trying to start a flaming war. Richard | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Richard, I simply think it's a matter of preference. If necessity or practicality were a criteria, Conversions would be outlawed and we'd be relegated to tents for our travel accomodations. It's one of the reasons those guys got on the Mayflower! Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| bruce king
Rating: N/A |
I can't say i've seen people crushed in maintenance pits because maintenance pits usually are professionally designed and constructed. That said, I have seen many stories about construction workers being crushed to death in pits. The anti-landslide stuff that the local health and safety dept mandates goes into excavations is made out of 1/2" steel and is a rectangle of it, with heavy cross bracing. You see this rig when they do street excavation for buried utilities, and so on. they lower it in with a crane. That said, if you tied the top of the pit walls into the floor slab with rebar you'd be reducing the tension load available at the bottom of the wall. I can't say why other folks would like a pit, but it would be handy for me for visual inspection of the bottom of my bus and for lubrication purposes -- if it's easier to do, it'll get done more often. | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
richard..you don't need a pit,because of that jewish fire | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
That's not funny, knock it off. | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
I have a pit in my garage and since I do all of my own maintenance and repairs on my Prevost I use the pit extensively. I have it plumbed for electric and compressed air. I have a sump which goes through an oil separator so no unwanted fluids end up on the ground. It does have to be built substantially but it is not that difficult. I have poured concrete walls in the pit, tied in with rebar to a seven inch thick concrete floor on compacted fill and crushed stone. When I changed my brake linings I had the entire coach supported on four hydraulic jacks, so the load was concentrated much more than it would be sitting on the tires and there have been no issues. If you do your own work the pit is an enormous benefit. I know because I previously changed air bags and brake chambers on the coach when I had no pit and it was up on ramps. With a pit it is a piece of cake. | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751)
Rating: N/A |
It may be an expence but I'd rather be under my bus or any other vehicle than in it most of the time. I enjoy being under it and looking at how things are put togather and work togather. I see something new everytime I get under something no matter how many times I've been in the same place. For that reason I want to have a pit in my shop so I can not only wonder around under the bus when I'm trying to think my way out of a pickle doing something else, but I'll also be able to see and get to alot more things like draging the steam cleaner down there and getting everything clean so I can see where my leaks are. I hate haveing a leaking piece of equipment. | ||
| Bill K. Rating: N/A |
I also have a pit and would not be without it, but I can't imagine using a steam jenny in the pit to clean under the coach, man what a mess that would be, you would have grease blowed all over the walls and everthing else. | ||
| mci102
Rating: N/A |
So Nick & Bill, I'm with you,a pit makes maintence so much easier and your bus much more reliable and cheaper to operate. Just pulled the plywood forms off my pit walls today. Thursday will pour the 6in thick floor that will produce a 54 inch depth. Pulling the wire thru the conduit and installing the lights (& paint)will find it complete. The floor will have a 10" dia recess for a pump to be recessed into as needed, an oil seperator sounds like a great idea, how is that setup, might be good to know before pouring the floor. One of the best things I did was to add a 4x4 steel angle to the top edge of the pit. The angle reinforces the edges and allows fixtures to be made to span the width of the pit...,for things like jacks and such. This idea which makes the pit much more versatile and came from the man himself, thanks Luke. If you do this, have 4" of #5 rebar with a 90 deg bend on the end welded to the inside angle at 45 deg. Space them about every foot. Good luck R Jensen | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
So I wouldn't have a fuel or oil spill get the EPA folks all over me I have no gravity drain for my pit. I have a sump with a small pump in it that feeds to a drain at the top of the pit. Before anything could leak from my pit it would have to fill up a 48" deep by 24" wide by 40 foot long pit and that won't happen. This way I can work on my fuel tanks or change any fluids and if I accidently spill them I can clean them up or pump them through the oil separator easily. That feature also works when pressure cleaning the engine or underside. I just direct the nozzle so I am not spraying all over my garage, and when I'm all done I just kick on the pump and pass the oily water through the separator. The alternative would be to do that out in the driveway and I don't want all of the oils and grease on my driveway. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Since most of either: A. don't have dedicated room to spare for a pit B. don't have the moooolah to spend for a pit C. don't plan to do everything ourselves on the bus to make a pit necessary What about "portable" ramps? Something that can be moved to whatever location we have handy.... Something that we can use to easily gain access to check out an air leak... Oil leak...etc..? What's the least expensive and easiest to assemble device to get enough space to safely and easily, get under the bus? | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Big Jack, big Jackstands, good concrete. Gary | ||
| mci102
Rating: N/A |
So John the new guy-I had just bought my first bus in 1988 and right away it needed the transmission rebuilt. I was living in an apartment with some other guys, so in the living room with a skil saw loaned from a friend I built a set of portable ramps. When a central bolt was pulled they would split in half, but even then they were still very heavy. I never liked working on my back with bus dust in my eyes and having to constantly get up for the right tool. The worst aspect of my ramps was my reach up into the bus was limited comfortably by the length of my arms..., any further reach required a lot of contortion. I got use to using my legs to move things around and feeling around like a blind man for my tools. Richard Bowyer gave very good reasons not to extend the effort to build a pit. I have heard the very same reasons before from my own brother who has been a mechanic for 30 years for the City of Seattle. But it is not just major projects or oil changes....,it's also for getting under your bus quickly and without effort. If your bus has an airleak and you have to get out ramps, you will live with that leak for a while. The rubber o rings, diaphrams within pressure requlators & brakes, the rubber within hoses, the layer of grease between matching steel parts..., time and tempture work against you. These are the things that will put on the side of the road. If your bus is parked over a pit these things are no long invisible to you. It is rare to find someone with ramps that is up on there preventive maintenance. I'm not a rich man, I spent a year thinking about how to build a pit I could afford and would do everything I needed to do. The first thing remember is your not building a pit to make money with. If you watch the details closely you can build a marvous pit for around $1,800.00 with lights, and a hard edge. If people are interested you can E mail me at mci102@msn.com. I'm not there now but will be after the first. RJensen | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Oh, it's not that I don't want one, I don't have a place to put one. Our bus is at a storage facility. If we were back at the place we sold (in Massachusetts), I'd have more than enough room and my own property to build it on. I have a feeling there's more people in my situation, than those that have ample resources and the property to do it on. Jacking and blocking the bus takes time, but driving it up on a ramp doesn't. I'm curious to hear what other people are using for their ramps and just how "portable" the ramps are..... There's a lot of work that I'm going to "farm out", but I'd love to have a way to get under there to check it all out... before and after..... along with being able to access things I can take care of myself. Oh..... also..... Our storage facility is at a boat storage facility. The yard is dirt, unpaved, with a shell base. I had to be winched out of the sand once already, so using a jack is off the horizon. Even the RV storage facilities have a light grade asphalt or thin cement parking area and not suited to jacking a bus... | ||
| Jim-Bob (Pd41044039)
Rating: N/A |
John, the least expensive safe solution is planking of 2 x 12s & blocking or cribbing of 6 x 6s or similar. My bus is parked on sand/shell in South Florida (my yard though). I made some of the planks 6', some 5' & some 4'. I did not angle the ends. I do not pin the planks but it would be a good idea. You could make the holes to some standard spacing so the pins would fit in all planks in any configuration. I stack up 3 like stairs with 12 inch long steps. I just drive the bus up on these. I use a chunk of 4 x 4 on each stack to stop the tires so I don't run off of the end. I use 4 of these stacks to raise all 4 corners if I need to. The rear I put under the inside dual tire. Once up on these, I build cribbing under the bulkheads fwd of the rear & behind the front wheels (Support points on a GM). I NEVER get under the bus whether it is raised or not without cribbing. If I have to raise an axle to remove a tire, etc, I can easily get a jack (20 ton air over hydraulic) under the axle. This blocking & planking I carry in the bus for levelling, etc when camping. It's amazing how many campsites are sloped badly. Just my low tech low buck way. Jim-Bob | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Jim- I like your "low tech way" and will probably do it that way. You didn't mention it, but would pressure treated wood be best? While you're still here... where'd you get the 20T air over hydraulic jack? And the price? I'd love to own one.. (probably everyone here, would) | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A |
Here is one at Harbor Freight for $250. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=4861 | ||
| R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Rating: N/A |
Don't rule out "borrowing" a pit. There's a local charter operator who has a 3-bus garage with a pit. I have used his garage while his coaches are out. I paid him some rent but that was a pittance c/w setting up my own bus garage. | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
air over hyd. Harbor Frieght 100.00 | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Thanks guys... The Harbour Frieght near here (abt 10mi away) didn't have any air over types in stock and I didn't bother to check their site. 100 lbs... ugh. How come, the older I get, the more stuff weighs? The 12 ton air/hydro bottle http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40609 is only 29 lbs and $100. Since the entire bus weighs less than 12 tons, is there any reason to buy a 20+ ton jack? Whoops... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=41487 25lbs and $80... for a 20 ton... Since our lives depend on the jack not failing, can HF tools be trusted? It's one thing to have a meter or grinder fail, and another, having the bus crush the jack on it's way up or down... Comments from HF jack users.....? | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
they work fine...never trust any jack completly...always block it up before you get under it | ||
| Jim-Bob (Pd41044039)
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John, the second reference is the one. It sure is nice to NOT be under the bus trying to work the jack. I have a 1/2" x 50' air hose hooked up to the bus air system that I use for this, airing up tires, and running the 1" air wrench. And by the way, I bent the jack screw on one of these 20 ton units when I did not have an adequate sized "two by" under it. The bus shifted when the jack base pushed down into the ground. (Another reason for the "air over" feature.} I got a 60" long pipe & cut a notch on the end so I can release the jack while standing out where it's safe. Happy & safe maintaining! Jim-Bob | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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John that newguy, our experience with pressure treated wood is that it is very weak compared to other lumber that we have available. Ever since we blocked up a crusher and had a big block crush down to about a third of its original size, we avoid blocking with treated. We have found a lot of other treated wood that had no strength, as well. Since it was available, we bought Douglas Fir and followed a pattern we got from Fast Fred to make run up blocks. I expected them to be awfully heavy, but I have no trouble handling them and no doubts about their ability to carry the load. I used the same blocks to do some service work on a car and was pleased to find that they were no problem using that way, as well. On top of that, they stow real nice! Good luck with your blocking. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Thanks guys!! I've been putting off making them, but right after the holidays, it's gonna' be done. (the bottle jack will be an addition soon also) Cheers!! | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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Don't you think you'll spend more time and effort building ramps than you would jacking numerous times? Gary | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Work - Time? Pick up 3, 2 x 12s, 10' long and make a few cuts with the Skillsaw.... Pop two holes in each three board assembly for thru bolts... and the job's done for as long as I own it.. About 1-1/2 hour to drive to Home Depot and back, half hour to saw and drill.... and two hours later I'm saving time figuring out how to get to that damned rear bag valve.. Sounds like a plan to me... Beats digging up a yard I don't own.. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
I'd notch the bottom corners so I could put in a couple of wheels that would come into play when I picked up the tapered end to move, much like the wheels on luggage. While, flat, in use, the wheels would not be loaded Onward and Upward | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Campingworld has these lego style interlocking blocks that are used for wheel ramps. They claim to be suited for any amount of weight. (I have over a hundred bucks worth of credit coupons that I can use for anything at that place....) http://www.campingworld.com/browse/products/index.cfm?deptID=5&prodID=4155&src=FPC Does anyone use, or have used, those blocks? They'd certainly be lighter to carry and they can be configured for any reasonable height.. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Never mind.... Apparently these blocks break under the weight of a normal RV. Reviews are here: http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?skunum=24733&affiliateID=577&siteID=nGt. Iox5rjI-Sf7UijDCVVk3iwY7EA99WA#reviews I'll go buy the boards. Thanks again guys! | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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One of the problems I had with using pine 2X12's was that they would split longways. I ended with rough cut hard wood planks, used in this part of the country for wooden bridge floors. They worked great. Richard | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Good idea, Rich! Down here in Flor-ah-duh, all I think I can get, are palms... | ||
| Jim-Bob (Pd41044039)
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Richard, I have had a couple of planks start to split. That could be prevented by glueing 1/4" ply on both sides. And most of mine are rough cut planks cut as true 2 x 12s, but some are PT store-boughts. When one starts to split, I just burn it in the campfire & pick up more. For that reason I don't put wheels on them. Also, most of my use is on ground (sand & dirt) that the wheels won't roll on. Since all are loose planks, I just pick 'em up & store one by one. PT is not mandatory if you don't leave the bus up on them for years. If you do, you might want to use PT for the bottom ones. Putting some tarpaper or plastic down first will only keep the bottom ones wet longer. We find all kind of uses for the planks & blocks when camping. I've often used a couple as a doorstep in a nasty, muddy site. Jim-Bob | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
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Wood is not weak because it is pressure treated. It is weak when it is wet and gains strength as it dries. When you buy PT wood, don't buy the new wet stuff. Buy the dried out stuff and look each one over for straightness and grain pattern. You can often predict a split from the grain pattern. Wet wood being weak is a continual problem for us in Florida. You guys in Texas and the Southwest should have no problem. Best source I had for blocks was a place that made laminated beams for churches etc. The cutoffs made really strong, light blocks. I always used a plywood buffer between the bus and the block to avoid concentrated stress on the blocks. I did not need to glue the plywood to the blocks. A wrecker service in Georgia had black solid plastic blocks that looked like pieces of railroad ties that were extremely light and very strong. I wish I knew where to get them. For strongest concrete, be sure to put down builders plastic between the ground and the concrete to keep the ground from sucking the moisture out of the concrete. Then keep the concrete wet for 1 week to 30 days. Once it dries it stops curing. You can use builders plastic on top and trickle water under it. Concrete reaches 90% of its strength in a few days but it takes 30 days to approach 100%. Again, has to remain wet (damp) the whole time or the cure stops. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Hello all. The trouble with a lot of pressure treated lumber is that the lumber is a poor grade to begin with. They get a better dollar for their crappy wood, as pressure treating is worshipped as some sort of idol by many inexperienced users who ignore the wood quality. And the good quality wood won't get top dollar if it has been pressure treated. Stephen's suggestion to find some laminated structural beam cut-offs is excellent. Though heavy, it is hard as nails and takes huge punishment, both in structure and abuse due to wet. The stuff they put in our house addition, the carpenter cursed the stuff up and down because you could barely get a 4 inch nail driven into it without bending them over. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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That's how old Douglas Fir acts, Buswarrior. And it's really not too heavy when dry. I think they make a lot of the glue lams out of it. I agree that the PT wood starts out crappy, but the inspectors around here won't pass anything else for outside use. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher |