| Author |
Message |
Mark & Michele (Busnut_pd4106)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 3:46 pm: | |
I am not sure if I can repost here but here goes.
Why charter bus driver Herbert Walters veered off an Arkansas highway in the predawn darkness of Oct. 9 may never be known. As the coach plunged off a rural stretch of Interstate 55, Walters and 13 unfortunate passengers were pried from their seats, ejected from the vehicle and gathered into the arms of lasting darkness.
Fourteen families, grieving yet I presume, are seeking an answer to what exactly happened on that horrific morning. At least one wrongful death lawsuit has already been filed.
In addition to the 14 deaths, injuries were sustained by the 16 other people on the bus. What started in Chicago as a charter to casinos in Tunica, Miss., ended in emergency rooms and morgues.
Pre-existing flaws found
The coach was operated by Chicago-based Walters Bus Service. It will be months before the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) issues a final report, but preliminary findings suggest that the 16-year-old coach had flaws that should have put it out of service.
NTSB investigators said the coach had pre-existing cracks in the rear frame rails. These types of cracks are serious enough that the coach should have been shelved until repairs were made. The Illinois Department of Transportation conducted a mandatory inspection in August, just a couple of months before the crash, but didn't find the flaw.
Walters Bus Service is owned by Roosevelt Walters, brother of the bus driver. Records indicate the coach was purchased in the mid-1990s. Its roof peeled away in the crash, creating the breach through which 29 of 30 passengers were ejected.
Five years ago, the NTSB urged the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to enhance protection for passengers of motorcoaches. One of its recommendations was to issue standards for stronger roofs in new coaches. It also urged the safety agency to devise new standards for preventing passengers from being tossed about the coach's interior — or ejected — when the vehicle sustains a front, side or rear impact or rolls over.
NHTSA has not acted on these recommendations.
Did fatigue play role?
No skid marks were found at the scene of the accident. Nor was there evidence that a tire blew out. NTSB investigators are trying to determine whether Walters fell asleep at the wheel. Relatives said he was conscientious about getting enough sleep the night before a long trip.
It's too early to tell what conclusions will be drawn from this terrible accident. I can say, however, that it's a setback for the motorcoach industry. Although more comfortable on the road these days, the traveling public takes notice of these types of crashes, especially when concerns arise about mechanical flaws or driver competence.
It would be too easy to dismiss this crash as an aberration. The industry needs to do a better job of scrutinizing its own practices. Here's what I see. . .
Crashworthiness of motorcoaches should be improved. In light of this accident, NHTSA should reconsider the NTSB's recommendations.
Sound preventive maintenance practices and careful pre-trip inspections should be the norm. They're often not. Some cut-rate operators rarely bother to service their coaches or pre-trip them.
Drivers who have problems with fatigue should be teamed with back-up drivers, even on shorter trips. All of us have nodded off at one time or another while driving. It's not a character weakness. But continuing to drive while fatigued is.
The millions of people who ride in motorcoaches each year deserve these safeguards. And we'll all sleep easier knowing they're in place.
Whaddya Think? |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 4:13 pm: | |
We can make every thing safe ,so safe that no one can afford to buy a new bus or afford to ride in one.
There is risk is every thing you do. Some times sh_t happens no matter how safe a car, bus , plane , train is.
And when thay crash some times people get hurt or die , thats life.
Thats what I think
Brian 4905 Klamath Falls OregOn |
Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 5:29 pm: | |
Hi Mark,
There are 5 other threads on this bus crash. Lot's of facts, insight and speculation in those threads.
What do I think? Buses aren't designed to withstand being driven on their roofs after a forward summersault. But I'd sure like to meet the person who designs the bus that does so, where everyone on board lives.
Ian
www.busnut.com |
TWO DOGS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 6:47 pm: | |
school bus gary has one...lets crash it |
Sojourner (Jjimage)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 6:47 pm: | |
About bus being inspected for safety. Amen!
HOWEVER that will not keep any vehicle from being ripped apart when responsible driver is not being in careful mood and wide alert.
In regarding with transportation system, more people killed or permanently disabled or crippled in USA due driver’s error or drunkenness.
My MCI had common cracks and repaired before purchase, but it had no affect to driving condition if it was not repaired.
Brakes, steering & suspension & running gear (include motor mounts & hoses) system, wipers, fire extinguishers and tires are to be inspecting seriously. Did I missed anything important as well a sound driver.
Stay sober and more people will be alive (including your-self) (who knows??) to admire your bus project.
That Include ME!
For what it’s worth.
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry |
CoryDane RTSII
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 7:00 pm: | |
Ok, now what to think?
We are talking about companies that have mechanics that understand the functions of a bus, the framework and all else. These buses get inspections frequently, as you said the bus had been recently inspected.
Ok, now, how about the bus nuts????
Who but ourselves will do the inspections and do we really know what to look for?
If we were to inspect our coach, what about that catch phrase "DO IT YOUR WAY"? Can anyone make a fix to any part of the bus to just make do?
I have come with a much larger understanding of my RTS but I don't know every little small critical system involved. I may never know and how many others can say that they would?
I can say when I bought my bus, my very early thoughts were that a bus was nothing more than a very big car that rode nicely. But thats ok, I'm over that now, admitting I have a very complex piece of machinery as the basis of what I (and we all) hope to be a very nice motorhome.
As for preventive maintenance, I have the book and it covers from the front of the bus to the back end. It takes a checklist to keep up with it. Do you get my drift here?
If the big companies are having all these troubles over the years, I sure hope that we as individual bus owners can do a better job with our insignificant resources for upkeep.
It makes you think.....
cd |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 7:25 pm: | |
Luke Bonsegura and I were standing, talking at Bussin 2002 when a coach left. As it drove by, both Luke and I looked at eachother, wide-eyed, flagged the driver down and told him/her of our concerns regarding loose lug nuts. The regular squeek was a tell tale, along with streaks near the lug nuts. We were treated to a "who do you think you are!" type look and were then informed that they would have THEIR mechanic look at it, about 1100 miles later!
Frankly, I can see why I would get such a look, but Luke had just finished his seminar presentation! Go figure!
Corey has a point!
Onward and Upward |
mleibelt
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 7:44 pm: | |
OK....Nomex undies on...
I have a MC-8 conversion and a 102A3 for people hauling...The only way EITHER bus is used is after it goes throught the shop every 5000 mules or less...Only way I can see to keep them safe....
Yes...it cost $$$$ but what price on safety....
For 90% of the people who have bus conversions DO NOT have the equipment or facilities to maintain one of these machines...
And by having a good shop do PREVENTIVE manitance I have yet to be sitting by the side of the road...
Shelds Up
Just my $.02 worth
Mark |
t gojenola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 7:55 pm: | |
Far be it for me to demean the importance of maintenance, nor to disregard the safety of passengers - but cracked frame rails do not cause a bus to fall off the roadway. We don't need new laws and regulations when it is evident the existing ones are not uniformly enforced. This particular accident can be investigated until doomsday, and more deficiencies will most likely be uncovered. But there is no escaping the logical conclusion that the driver lost control of his vehicle, and the accident was caused by that and that alone.
My son herded up to 200 buses for Westours in Alaska for 18 years. They had accidents too, but even with careful driver training, drug and substance testing, annual physicals and careful attention to hours of service, none were caused by the condition of the bus. Fires & breakdowns, yes, accidents no.
just my 2cents
tg |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 8:47 pm: | |
If the bus had in fact undergone a very recent State inspection I would seriously doubt that anything about the bus contributed to it going off the road. A possibility that something in the steering or suspension suddenly failed or broke and caused it, but even a daily full safety inspection would not necessarily pinpoint an impending disaster.
Most likely, it was driver malfunction (he went to sleep at the wheel) and I don't see where that should prompt more stringent standards on bus manufacturing, unless perhaps your suggesting computerized robot operators. Hell, I don't trust the DDEC ECM in my bus to operate the engine and I damn sure ain't going to trust it, or any of it's relatives, to drive. I do agree w/the suggestion of back-up drivers or even a driver monitor and alert system, but again, that has no bearing on the condition of the bus. Like has been said, they are not and cannot be designed for off-road!!! use. |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 8:49 pm: | |
Hi Folks:
Unfortunately in this thread there are two conversations going on, which seems so often to happen. Unfortunately, someone reading the initial post, may pass by subsequent answers and perhaps miss valuable info!!!
One: The tragic accident in Ark.
Two: Converted coach safety.
With regard to the first I am watching this one with great interest, as the photos showed the roof completely away from the chassis, and subsequent reports indicated a second roof overlaying the original roof. My initial thought is that the vehicle may have been improperly repaired, after a previous accident, which may have contributed to the failed coach structure???
But I will not second the NTSB!!!!!
With regard to number two, I can not emphasize enough to converted coach owners: The coach you buy is the "FOUNDATION" of the "HOUSE" you are building!!!!!
Any first time coach customer coming into our shop is urged to bring along Grubby Clothes, as he/she is invited to go under as we inspect it, on one of our pits, with clip board in hand. If nothing else, the customer (may be a one bus owner, band group, church, ministry, or converted coach owner), knows more about their coach than when they came into our shop. I truly believe that an educated consumer is our best customer, as it relieves a lot of doubts, and he/she hopefully will be convinced to operate a "SAFE" coach on the highway, for their benefit as well as for those travelling on the same highway!!!!
And Marc, I remember that well!!! In stopping that lady, it was to offer HELP, as I am sure with the number of coaches there, we could have come up with a lug wrench and breaker bar to tighten them up.
I like old sayings, but my parts manager changed one of my regulars just recently to:
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him THINK"!!!!!!!
Happy & SAFE Bussin to ALL!!!
LUKE at US COACH |
TWO DOGS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 8:54 pm: | |
I thought I read that the driver was eating at the time of accident |
Tony H. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 9:00 pm: | |
I thought that he went to the bath room |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 9:48 pm: | |
Mark-
re:
"All of us have nodded off at one time or another while driving. "
SAY WHAT ?
you gotta' be kiddin'.... |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 10:34 pm: | |
Luke, I'm a more positive thinker than your parts man (who I spoke with today, btw!)
You can make a horse drink!
It takes three guys, two to hold its head under water and the third supplys the vacuum at the rear (opening that is, like in An**!)
I think that lady may have suspected we wanted to bend her over a horse trough!
Hope she made it home in one piece! |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 10:37 pm: | |
To add to Luke's comments.....
I made the mistake of not bringing my bus to a bus garage prior
to the purchase. If it had frame cracks, I would have been out
a great deal of cash; I'm fortunate; lucky.
It should be stressed on this board... In fact....
It wouldn't be a bad idea to work up a list of all the things a
newbie should consider, when considering the purchase of
a used bus.... And have a special place to find it here on this
board....
And number one, would be: Take it to a bus garage for a
complete inspection before purchase and before you make
an offer.
This isn't a car or pickup truck you're buying. It's a piece of
heavy equipment that carries a heavy price tag for all repairs
and parts you may need. No price is too cheap; no bus is a
bargain, when the cost to fix it outweighs the money you have
to spend on repairs... Assuming it can be fixed.
You'll be driving 11 tons of vehicle. You have the ability to
drive over the average SUV, crushing it (I've considered it,
but am waiting for the right moment).
The weight of the vehicle should weigh as heavily on your
conscience, if you consider using it without a thorough
safety inspection prior to use. |
charles seaton
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 10:26 am: | |
It's an old story. A one or two bus charter company where the owner is looking to pocket as much cash as possible while investing as little as he can get away with.
In New Jersey a few years ago, an MC 7 charter bus lost its brakes on a steep hill. Several passengers were killed and injured and it was later discoverd that though the bus was badly in need of a brake job, the owner pulled it out of the shop in order to do the charter.
It is gratifying to note that most of the people posting this board care not only about themselves and their coaches, but also the other people who use the roads with them.
I would certainly feel comfortable criticizing the coach owners with loose lug nuts who turned down Luke's offer of help. I know they will never read this board nor subscribe to any of the wisdom that can be found in its postings. |
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