| Author |
Message |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 10:23 pm: | |
Been having problems on and off with check engine light. Did the ddec test and came back with codes 16 and 43 which are both coolant sensor related. 16 is high voltage and 43 is low coolant. Changed the old sensor to a new one from DD and no change with codes. Tried a new ground direct to batteries but still no change. Checked the coolant and it's full. I was wondering if another slight change I noticed today could be the culprit. When I set the fast idle it used to run up to about 1000 rpm but now when I set it, it only goes up about 750 rpm. Also the check engine light only goes on at different speeds of the engine. If it (yellow) stays on long enough, eventually the stop engine light (red) will glow and sometimes it will go out without killing the engine. When it does glow, when on fast idle, it shuts down the fast idle to regular idle. Could this be a sign of clogged fuel filters? Engine sounds a little flat to me but hard for me to say. Even when Susan showed up, she made the same comment that it sounded funny! I have new filters that will go on tomorrow to try but what will cancel out the blinking lights and codes IF the filters are the problem? Fuel filters are not in the troubleshooting guide for the codes I retrieved but since the ddec needs to know how much fuel to release or send or whatever it does, could the filters be related to the blinking lights and shutdown? Didn't really want to chance taking it down the road today on Christmas Eve, in heavy traffic, being a rainy day, with the shut down blinking!
Thanks...
Ace |
jimmci9 #2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 11:01 pm: | |
know of another ddec engine that is similar to yours???... see if you can swap/borrow the ecm.... just long enough to run yours and see if the problem repeats... if it does, its in the senders, sensors or wiring.... if the problem goes away, its the ecm.... |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 11:19 pm: | |
Loose/corroded connector (or ground) at the ecm? |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 11:48 pm: | |
Ace - was the mill at operating temp or had you just started her? NIles |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 11:58 pm: | |
Happened when I first started it and kept it up until it ran up to operating temp.. When driving it the last time out I noticed the check engine light would come on and go off at different times like when approaching a stop, it would come on. I would put it in nuetral and the light would go off "sometimes" and sometimes not! Seems to be getting worse every time I run it!
I checked all leads harness's and plugs going into ecm and everything appears to be snug as a bug!
Ace |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 12:08 am: | |
Monday would be a good day to head over to Radio Shack for
a can of contact cleaner and a burnishing pad. I'd yank all the
connections and make certain there's no hidden corrosion.
If there was only one problem, it'd be one thing...but you're
saying there's a few totally different problems..
If the system's anything like the standard automotive types, it'd
kinda' point to a failure of the "black box".... and corrosion can
do it, so could a bad ground. Tightness doesn't count, shiny-clean,
does. |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 12:24 am: | |
If it had been fuel starved (by the clogged filters) I imagine it could have run lean and caused the check engine message - but not when its cold - If its shutting down I would say it could be oil pressure/level as local DDEC wrench told me that oil and coolant temp/levels supposedly are the only things that would trip shutdown - I've never looked at the sensor, but is there some type of sending unit too? - I do know it won't allow fast idle if there's a check engine code - Last week mine gave me a 12 on the DDEC test which turned out to be low coolant (not the proper code) so I wouldn't rely too much on that - The intermitent indication depending on engine rpm's is sure consistent with oil pressure problems - what's your gauges saying when this happens? - Niles |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 8:39 am: | |
Oil pressure when cold on fast idle is up around 50 and that's the gauge on the engine, not the dash as the dash gauge reads slightly lower. When it idle's down, the oil pressure reads around 25 on engine and around 20 on dash. I don't think it's oil related to be honest! I also think JTN is on to my way of thinking in that it's a connection corroded someplace because it's so intermittent although the sound being a little flat could be the start of something new such as clogged filters. Anyway I will keep checking and changing to the new filters can't hurt. It was due for them anyhow!
Thanks
Ace |
Art Gill (Sandcastle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 11:53 am: | |
I have had strange problems with my DDEC II. The check engine light will come on for a while, then the stop engine light, the engine will hickup and both lights will go off. A little futher down the road the engine will Hic-up and the check engine light comes back on. I also have trouble with my fast idle that 90% of the time when I turn on the fast idle the engine speed does not increase, but the idle engine shut down is bypassed as it should be. This tells me that the ECM is getting the input. Also, I haven't been able to get the error codes to readout.
I took the coach to the DD dealer and he was going to put a breakout box between the ECM and the coach. He was unable to get the coach to run with the breakout box. So, then he used another ecm and said that the coach ran fine. He ordered a rebuilt ECM for $1400. The only good part is that they will remove all the passwords and modify the prom to my requirements as part of the price. The DD dealer still has the coach, so I can't comment on if it runs better.
Most of the inputs to the ECM are pull to ground. So with a volt ohm meter check the voltage accross the sender with the check engine light off and again when the check engine light comes on. You can try disconnecting the sensor and see what happens and then try shorting the leads taken off the sensor and see if the problem comes and goes. I had problems with my coolant level sensor, before I knew about how it all worked, the check engine light would come on, the engine would degrade in performance, I would stop and the level would come up enough for the sensor to work. I would then drive on and the cycle would repeat itself. Also, after I replaced my radiator it took serveral trips to get all the air out that caused the sensor to false.
I beleive that I damaged my ECM by welding a trailor hitch on without disconnecting anything. Now, I know better. Beware!!! |
Jim-Bob (Pd41044039)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 2:43 pm: | |
Hey Ace, I have been to a John Deere electronic engine school (very similar to DDEC) where the instructor drilled into our heads that the ECM has to have it's own power supply direct to the battery (definately not to the starter terminal or similar) Also, any other ECMs like the transmission need to have dedicated ground wires tying all together, then to battery ground. Just wondering if you rewired anything, or if sitting in FL humidity caused your Gremlins.
Jim-Bob |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 2:47 pm: | |
Ace - If cleaning the connectors doesn't solve it - did you check for problem w/ coolant probe? - If not it could be CLS connectors or module - God Luck - Niled |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
Re:
"or if sitting in FL humidity caused your Gremlins"
Bingo! Welcome to Salty Roachland.. |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 3:19 pm: | |
I like my roaches w/o salt - dipped in a mild picante sauce - LOL -Niles |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 12:00 am: | |
JB I haven't changed any of the wiring and never really considered the humidity but that I think would fall under dirty or corroded connections which I will check tomorrow IF it ever stops raining!
Niles I changed the Low coolant sensor that is located in the water tank but still no change! The troubleshooting guide I have says to do that first and if no change then to check the ground at the alternator. In fact it says to check the ground at the alternator for BOTH of my codes which are 16 and 43. Both of which are coolant related. I think it probably could be a ground fault or corrosion because of it's being intermittent. I will check it all tomorrow and hopefully finally figure it out so we can get on the road to Arcadia!
JTN... this is the kind of stuff that takes a serious post and turns it to shit! It's really not needed! |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 12:22 am: | |
Ace-
I live here; I love it here; I call it as I see it.
I lost money and time replacing corroded and rusted electronics
in two motorhomes since moving to Florida, due to the salt in the air.
It took me a month of roach bombing, spraying and dusting, to get
the roaches out of this MC9 I bought. Thankfully, most disappeared
when the seats were removed; I pity the next owner of the seats...
I have a strong "feeling" that you'll find corrosion in the connectors
will be the cause of your problems. I had a refrigerator and hot
water heater both suffer from that. The dealers said the "modules"
were bad ($125). I cleaned the connectors and continued using
perfectly good modules.
I had to repair two automobile starters, two automobile alternators,
one RV alternator and ALL ground connections on both RVs,
due to salt.... Living on "beachside" for a year and a half plays
hell... We're 3 miles from the Ocean now, and the salt still has
to be washed from everything once a week.
Roaches? Florida's notorious.. Let's not even bother arguing about it.
If you lived anyplace else, I wouldn't have suggested corrosion as
a first cause and primary target.
Take care Ace. I hope you find the problem quickly! |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 1:52 am: | |
Corrosion is a strong possibility. Just put my wifes car back on the road with another transmission after it sat for a year and a half. Several systems that were not working right initially corrected themselves within a week of driving without my doing anything. Must be that vibration from running and driving is good for connectors. No computer in this car, thank God. Diesel too, so it started right up after a year and a half. |
John Rigbyj
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 6:15 pm: | |
John That Newguy.
You hit the nail on the head, Its probably a bad/loose/intermittent/corroded ground.
We also live a couple of miles from the gulf, were the air plus allowing somthing to sit idle really is terrible on electrical connections.
I work sometimes offshore where all the equipment they have on the platforms is sealed, and in a stainless steel case or has a special paint on it.
John |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 6:51 pm: | |
OK guru's check this out! Just spent all day from 9am until just now tracing wires including ALL grounds, ALL hots, and ALL ELSE that has anything to do with auto shutdown, lights and sensors. We pulled out every plug-in connection, cleaned all those that weren't plug in's, even went as far as removing the DDEC and all it's components, trying even another ECM, cleaning each and every piece, including the ECM mounting grommets to end up with no score on my end! It's Still H3-1 Ace-0.
Now let me add that while running different test we found that the check engine light AND stop engine light come on ONLY while the rear remote switch is in the UP position being the position that allows the driver to start the bus from drivers seat. When I put the remote switch to the DOWN position being the position that allows the mechanic to remotely start bus from rear, it does the same thing as above and eventually shuts down the bus, BUT when I start the bus in either the UP or DOWN position and then quickly set the switch to the middle or neutral position, all things, including gauges on dash and engine, all lights, even the fast idle on the dash works with NO check or stop engine lights or shutdowns! Is this remote switch the culprit? From the looks of it after removing it from the box, it appears it has been changed before. I know by running the switch in the middle position, it is eliminating all the electronic sensors but this is the only way I could get it go down the road with no fear of a shutdown!
Oh and there were No roaches hidden anywhere and very little corrosion on the ends of the terminals.
ANY thoughts?
Ace |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 8:16 pm: | |
It sounds like you've eliminated the ECM as being defective,
if everything's fine when you bypass the sensors. But eliminating
corrosion of the ECM connections, may be only the beginning.
If you're by-passing all the sensors and all's kewl, then why not
go back to those sensors and try locating and eliminating the faulty one?
Re:
"Did the ddec test and came back with codes 16 and 43 which are
both coolant sensor related. 16 is high voltage and 43 is low coolant. "
The DD site has mucho' info:
http://www.detroitdiesel.com/results.asp?mh=200&sd=Rank&ae=True&ct=Web&qu=reset+ddec
A guy down here says that the dd ecm may have to be reset after
a faulty sensor is replaced... He didn't say how..
I have no experience or knowledge in this area... I wish you much luck!
(If my manual has anything in it regarding the ecm, I'll let you know asap,
but I didn't find anything yesterday)
Please post your findings when you get it resolved? The rest of us down
here may need the benefit of your experience eventually. |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 11:22 pm: | |
Ace - I'm going to look at mine tomorrow and see if I can get a better idea of whats going on - Let you know - Niles |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 12:26 am: | |
If you're by-passing all the sensors and all's kewl, then why not
go back to those sensors and try locating and eliminating the faulty one?
I have found that ALL the sensors are working properly including ALL sending units, and the LCS (low coolant sensor) was replaced twice. Once by ABC bus with a used one and now by me with a NEW one! I was told that even though the codes for 16 and 43 are related to the low coolant sensor that it could possibly be something else entirely and not related to the LCS at all. I'm beginning to believe that! I eliminated all the sensors one at a time and none of them shut the engine down. I eliminated all the sending units one at a time and still no shutdown! I even charged the batteries to make sure they were properly juiced to the max!
I can cancel out and rest the DDEC IF i had a DD module for my pro-link! Maybe someone in Arcadia will have one with them! Until then, I'll run it without the use of sensors and go strictly by mechanical gauges!
Ace |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 12:45 am: | |
Also I forgot to mention that the 3 way switch for remote starting is UP for front starting, DOWN for rear starting and middle is to shut the engine OFF from rear! THAT'S where it runs best at! I'm thinking the switch is bad or mis-wired and the fault codes need to be simply (HA) erased using a data reader!
Ace |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 12:23 pm: | |
Ace-
Can I ask a dumb question? (aww hell, I'm gonna do it anyway)
I turned on the bus heat last week. Turning that valve in the
rear to let the engine coolant flow to the front of the bus
(the defroster, OE heater, etc), takes quite an amount of
coolant. With 40' up and 40' back worth of hose, plus whatever
the radiator cores take, must really add up to some serious gallons..
Considering your problem (and that you've already mentioned
the codes pointing to a cooling problem), is there any chance
that turning on the heat may have taken some coolant from the
area of the sensor, leaving it deprived of enough coolant to
trigger it? |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 12:57 pm: | |
Nope! Already thought of that but I haven't turned on any heat! It is definitely an electrical problem. Talking with Prevost reps as we speak (all morning) and waiting for their professional opinions!
They agree that my bus should not be running in the OFF position but like I told them, it does!
Ace |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 2:37 pm: | |
Hey Ace,
I agree, you're getting a backfeed from somewhere
This is a stupid question, but you haven't installed anything recently on the key-on line have you? Like a car stereo or something?
I've been fighting a problem with the PCM on my Durango for weeks, looked at everything, couldn't figure it out. Two days ago, it just fixed itself, out of the blue. Isn't technology wonderful?
Gary |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 3:09 pm: | |
No Gary! I have been doing good to get plumbing and a bed in this thing so I can get to the rally!
I have not done any electrical other than house wiring in this bus!
Leaving later on for Arcadia anyway! If you see us on the side of the road, just blow your horn and keep going, cause I'll be getting the gas ready for the BIG fire!
Ace |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 3:30 pm: | |
Hmm....
Quite a puzzle.
I don't know your history with the bus really, have you had if forever? has it always done this?
I would start by putting the switch in the "Off" position and start unhooking things one at a time until the off position until things really go off. also never overlook the possibility that a self-tapper went through something impotrant.
Good luck on the trip, wish I was going.
Gary |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 3:46 pm: | |
Just a note...
With my MC9 rear control, I have a -Front- or -off- or -rear-
and a separate "run/off" toggle switch.
The "front" position simply allows starting from the front.
The "rear" is to start the engine from the rear. The switch
has a spring return for the "rear start". Push down to start
from the rear and it'll pop back to the "off" position as soon
as it's released.
The "Off" position is to do neither. It does not shut the engine
down, it just will not start if in that position.
To shut the engine down, I'd have to use either the "run/off"
switch or the Emergency shutdown.
With yours, you move that Front/rear switch to the middle
position to shut it down? Is there also a separate start button
to start it from the rear?
Am I confused? If the switch shouldn't shut the engine down,
then you may not have a problem with that... the problem would
more likely be with a sensor or connection to it...
The guy that mentioned a reset of the "black box" has left the
park already. I couldn't locate any info otherwise..
I wish ya' luck Ace.. Hope all goes well. |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 6:39 pm: | |
No I always make sure that I don't tap into anything important ever since I ran a screw into the plastic fuel tank by mistake so I'm pretty confident that that's not it!
As for thje rear switch? Yes, there is a seperate start push button. The switch is UP for starting from front, Down for starting from rear and in the middle for cutting engine off from rear, just as you would with the key switch up front!
Talked to prevost and they faxed me a wiring diagram that is of really no help since I already had it. That's about all i got from them other than see if I can get to a DD shop near by! Well, I figured since I was going to try and make the rally, I might as well see if Horizon coach could giver it look over and they said sure and I'll even get a rally discount. whoo hoo! I guess at this point anything is worth something because I sure as hell can't figure it out! Everyone I have talked to says that the bus shoul;d not run in the middle position! Little do they know! LOL
Ace
By the way, I heard as of about 3pm there were about 25 or so coaches already in the rally! |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 8:26 am: | |
Ace, I strongly recommend you get a can of the cleaner lubricant I mentioned in the post above. Remove all your connectors, give them a spray and then connect and disconnect and reconnect a couple or three times. I have solved vexing problems like you are having several times like this. Even one time on an automatic transfer switch with 50 amp relays that were causing problems.
Richard |
RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 3:29 pm: | |
Ace -
Marc asked a question the other day about what (if anything) you put on the threads of the sensors you replaced, and you responded by asking a question back about why he asked you that.
I'm pretty sure Marc asked because sometimes folk put things like anti-seize or teflon paste compounds on threaded items, and that type of thing can change the electrical contact between the sensor and where it's installed, which would then lead to weird readings. I know I've had it happen to me, when installing electrical oil pressure or oil temp gauges. . .
Lots of us out here in BNO-land are curious to find out what this electrical gremlin is that's driving us all crazy trying to help you sort it out, and we all appreciate your updates.
Good Luck, and have a GREAT time in Arcadia. I won't make it this year, but it's on the calendar for next!
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 6:39 pm: | |
RJ the sensors that I received direct from Prevost which are OEM replacements from DD all have a sealer already applied to them. It's red in color and on the water application's, they don't leak so it must be an approved sealer.
BUT... since going to Arcadia with the dreaded electronic shut down problem and the quick shifting problem in the 740, a decision was made to leave the coach in Arcadia with the mechanics at Horizon coach, which by the way came HIGHLY recommended at the rally by owners of busses that had simple service to complete engine rebuilds.
For those of you that have emailed me wondering if I had found the problem, the answer is NO, they did, and almost right away. It seems there is a coolant sending unit on the RH head, NOT the sensor, that is wired to or thru the ECM. That sending unit has a wire double nutted to it and was clean and tight but when checking it, they found that the stud that goes thru the unit was actually loose and able rotate causing it to send a false signal to the DDEC. A very simple fix but very hard to find. One problem I'm glad thats over! Goes to show you that even though things appear to be in good condition, they can be bad on the inside!
The transmission would shift very quickly up and down as I would accelerate and result with the engine lugging at low speed with verly little pulling power! New filter and fluid didn't help! Apparently they (Horizon) has a way to check the trans for operation by tricking it with air. Well the trans runs out good as does the motor. That means no internal repairs are needed. The problem is in the electronics. Well they received a fax of this bus's particular wiring diagram from Prevost today and looks like a wire numbered 505 (I think) is the culprit. As soon as they trace this wire, they will either run a new one per Prevost or fix the original depending on condition! By the way, I test drove the bus today in the trick condition and what a difference. Much more power on take off and thru the gear changes. Even the mechanics were surprised at the way the bus runs. Their comments were it ran fast and smooth just like a new one. They also told me that the DDEC is programmed at 450-475hp which is not original but that told them that someone else before me had it done!
Now I can't wait to get it back and air it out!
If anyone is ever in need of service work, I TOO recommend Horizon Coach in Arcadia! Very honest guys to work with!
Ace |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:14 am: | |
Ace
Not saying I knew what the problem was -remember, Im not a wrench - - but if you look at line 4 of my second posting - "is there some type of sending unit too?" - I once had a problem with my Vette w/ the fan sensor burning out every 3 months or so (funny how GM only warranteed them for 90 days) and overheating my engine - after the 3rd or 4th time replacing it - I finally contacted GM engineering (evidently I wasn't the only one with this problem), and they suggested replacing the relay - VOILA! - never had the problem again - now I look for things like that - Glad to hear it came out O.K. and a relatively cheap fix too - now you can get back to luxury coach building - BTW what did the Horizon guys think of the tanks? - (sorry, couldn't resist)
Niles
P.S. - had a great time w/ you and Susan - hope you did too! |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 8:03 am: | |
Thanks Niles! Yea we also had a great time and the tank seminar was almost if not better than the the planned seminars! All I can say is to those that missed the seminar is you missed a good part of the rally! Truly a side splitting experience for a lot of guys and gals.
Niles, the guys at the shop looked over the coach and agreed that everything looked safe from thier viewpoint except for the liquor and beer bottles I had to drive AROUND to do the test drive. I had to go "around" the woods to the main road! Seems there was another H3-40 that "leaked" on the way out! Wonder who that could have been? LOL
Anyway, keep the coach where it's at. I won't be needing those parts anytime soon but another party, er, seminar is in the works real soon!
Ace |