| Author | Message | ||
| Terry Simpson
Rating: N/A |
Do any of you guys know who makes air leveling systems besides HB INdustries? | ||
| Pete RTS/Daytona Rating: N/A |
I have designed / assembled / tested a number of (Air over auto levelers) systems. I have been acquiring high quality new and used soleniod valves for the last year. I will start putting resonably prices packages together in the next month. (A) FBSS - front/back/side/side with auto override soleniod assemblies (no check valves required) - (3 or 4 point systems) (B) leveling switch consoles (up/down/auto/manual) (c) Plus unique digital 3 or 4 corner (Plus main tank) pressure displays with low and high alarms The system I designed and installed on my RTS conversion can raise or lower any corner almost 12"   Pete Papas RTS/Daytona - DBA (D.P.Solutions) Ormond Beach Florida (386) 672-0571 .____________ /_][][]/____/[]_| 1989 RTS-II T70206 6V92-TA DDEC-II V731 4.10/24.5 *--O-----------O-* Daytona FL.-Hard Beaches/Soft Women | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
Have you thought of building one your self? I made one my self for my 4905 A 4 corner system in manual. And in auto the factory 3 point using the coach leveling control valves. All manual air valves no sherader valves. The air valves are very small and look just like electric toggle switchs from the top . I have a scamatic and details in the gmc-busnuts group in yahoo in the file section under Brian and janice's 4905 If your a member you can see it or just join. I did mine a little differnt then others I use air regulators to adjust the hight So far they work good. The best part I like is It still works just like factory when in auto. The only thing with doing it your self is making a panel to put in air gauges For me Im going with 4- 2" gauges and mounting them in my dash ,going for the air plane look with 100's of gauges and switches. bigbusguy Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
I would like to find something that will work on SIX points... having a bendy-bus makes this a bit more tedious methinks.  -Kevin | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A |
Pete: Does your system employ the stock air springs for leveling? If so, how do you get 12" of lift out of a 12" air spring with a normal lift range of approx. 5". | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
 This is what my air level gauges in my dash should look like. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A |
Brian: Do u also have a pre-flight checklist? When do u find time to visually monitor all those guages? I sure hope it's not when ure barrelling down on my ass at 75mph. | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
looks like a 747 dash | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
I haven't installed it yet but for a reliable system I believe replacing the rods that tell the leveling valve its position , with a long lockable push pull cable would work simply. For most coaches only the front need be done as the fore & aft leveling is what's usually needed most , but if needed a longer pair of cables , or a simple walk aft could adjust the level from side to side when/if needed. When the new roof is on , we will find out if leveling can be KISS . FAST FRED | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Jmaxwell, you need to check your humorometer level. Gary | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A |
Laughing.......i thought the same thing, to much information......for me...... | ||
| Sojourner (Jjimage)
Rating: N/A |
About going from three points to four points is asking for more trouble. Example if you raise left or right front higher than rear same side, then you are straining (twist) the coach body more due to rear engine (weight). It’s your coach. Do what you want but beware possible frame-crack in the future. A four point hydraulic lift is difference with automatic leveling system. Another word, it’s each hydraulic lift is same load as tire load on level ground. For what it’s worth. Sojourn for Christ, Jerry | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Hey James-- All that, whilst watching the GPS monitor, the rear-end monitor, adjusting the satellite radio.... AND talking on the cellphone!! And it ain't safe to drive behind him, cuz he don't have a Jake brake light! (har de har har) | ||
| Pete RTS/Daytona Rating: N/A |
Fred I thought about your type of leveling system (vary the lenght of the connecting rod for the level sensor). But I believe that type of system would have a major drawback - The leveling system would still be "active" - as you move around the coach during the day the levelers would be actively trying to put air in or bleed air off the air springs - until it draws the suspension tank down. There is a strong possiblity that it will eventually leave the coach uneven and unable to correct because to suspension tank would enventually will not have enough pressure to increase the air bag pressure when required. Pete (Just my opinion) | ||
| Todd Amon (Teqsand)
Rating: N/A |
THe problem on my coach (4104) is that the drivers side will lower as air depleates but the passenger side stays up all the time  really suck when you park and it wont level out T | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I strongly suspect you have a leaking air bag or leaking levelling valve on the rear drivers side Richard | ||
| Geobus (4108gmc)
Rating: N/A |
I have been having some problems with my front level control on my 4108gmc. It needs to be replaced. Which of the ideas above, if any, require replacing this valve and which ones use the factory setup. I am thinking about updating to a leveling system and would like to know if I need to buy a factory replacement valve or if I should buy something else? Have a great day. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Jerry, I'm trying to think of a way that you could tweak the frame by leveling it with the suspension. I'm coming up blank. Furthermore, the suspension is connected at a hardpoint on the frame that is made for more stress. Also, corner jacks are working against what the suspension is trying to do, so there is another inherent conflict in the seperate systems. Jacks mounted at the corners of the frame on the other hand DO tweek things, by their very nature. Leveling with the bags just seems logical to me. It's not novel or original, many commercial manufacturers have done it from the factory. | ||
| Pete RTS/Daytona Rating: N/A |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) asked -->"....Pete: Does your system employ the stock air springs for leveling? If so, how do you get 12" of lift out of a 12" air spring with a normal lift range of approx. 5"." I have stock RTS springs for my '89 - (I believe the air bag lift is somewhat greater than 5" - but I'm not sure) It's all a simple matter of Geometry - consider the air spring mounts the fulcrum of a lever - the corners are a considerable distance from the point of movement (the air springs) and the travel measured at the "corners" is close to 12" because the movement is amplified by this condition - actually twice - because the diagonally opposite corner moved in the opposite direction will amplify the movement also. P.S. I only use 3 points (indiviguals rears (left/right) and the fronts are tied together RTS TMC style (3 points / 2 bags each point) - I use this system to avoid twisting the frame - I hopefully put no more strain on the frame then the engineers designed it to withstand | ||
| mel 4104 Rating: N/A |
GM spent a lot of time and money to come up with the three point level system, just rember you can sit on a stool because it has 3 legs and it will not rock back and forth but a chair with 4 legs takes alot of bending when used on an uneven floor, 1 leg is always off the floor. and as GM's are rivited together ever time you stress one corner and put up ward presure on in it effects the coach. | ||
| Jim McArthur Rating: N/A |
Terry, to answer your question, Yes. Coach Services (Gary Nickerson) in Lake Havasu, AZ sells and installs a system for GM coaches. It eliminates the leveling valves. I level out when I park. When I leave, I readjust the bags for the road. Some like this system and some don't. It works good for me and eliminates those pesky leveling valves. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"The leveling system would still be "active" - as you move around the coach during the day the levelers would be actively trying to put air in or bleed air off the air springs - until it draws the suspension tank down." Folks dont weigh enough (at least us) to move the coach requiring air from the tanks,we camped many times. But of course no system is completly air tight (though some will stay up for a couple of months!) so I have a 12V air compressor from a GMC motorhome that will make the required make up air pressure . Kinda neat using a GMC system in a GM. FAST FRED | ||
| Jeff (Jeff)
Rating: N/A |
Pete's system does work and work well. I saw his set up last fall. Between hurricanes, I stopped in on Fred Hobe, to get a generator. Saw his work and picked his brain. On Fred's site he has an air leveling system that also works well. It is good, simple and works well for an MCI. (with them extra wheels) His is in the right rear compartment on the corner. Pete's is tied in the original system. So when on the road the system uses the original settings to keep level and give a good ride. Pete & I have had that discussion about three point and four point leveling. Remembering how to level a camping trailer, the three point is the best way with less frame flexing. Any others with camping trailer leveling experience should agree. When parked, you can level the bus from the driver's seat. It looked pretty good even though it was roughed in. His bus looks great on the outside and he is making progress with the interior. Wished I had the weather he has now to make some sawdust here in Virginia. Jeff "Take Another Road" Member 4:10 Club Rustless not Busless in Buckroe 1988 TMC RTS-06 6V92-TA DDEC IV/V731 da Bubba | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
The 3 point VS the 4 point , On my 4905 still uses the factory 3 piont when Im driving. When parked I switch the air off the the factory system and level with a 4 point system. I think there is more stress with a 3 point manual level system . As made by the factory the 3 point system will always try to keep the rear axle level with the body and the front axle will stay level with the ground. When parked on a angle and When you level manul with a 3 point if you drop one side or the rear and raise the other. It puts a big twist on the body becouse your trying to overcome the air bags in the front that want to stay level. With air bags the front axle dont just pivot at the center you have to put a lot of force to push it up on one side. With the 4 point when your parked and need to level from side to side I can let the air out of both right front and right rear and air up the LF & RR and I get more travel and my bus will tilt over more then 3 point. I tryed it. I can still level like the 3 point if I want I just set the front and level the rear. I think both 3 or 4 point will work but 4 point will give you more movement to level. With mine I just keep it simple 4 manual valves and a way to put air in or remove it I using regulators with a check valve on each so without air PIS from the coach or my compressor the dont back feed out the in side. One thing with the way I plumbed mine in manual I bypass the factory level valves where most of leaks can happen. PIC of the valve next to a light switch Clippard FTV-3P sorry for the poor looking pic's it the best can do for now.   Brian bigbusguy 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A |
Brian: I don't think that you are exerting any more stresses on the bus with 3 point manual levling than occurs under normal road driving conditions. Consider that when the bus leans on the road, the air pressure in the low side air springs increases due to compression; if it stays there long enough the leveling valve will increase that pressure, thus raising the low side of the bus. The air springs serve to level the bus relative to the position of the axle, be it front or back, which is always in contact with whatever plane it is on. On the other hand, 4 point does probably add some versatility and added range to manual leveling, providing you don't make the mistake of raising or lowering diaganally opposed corners in conjunction, which would be a source of some real un-natural stresses. Many stick and staple people have done exactly that with their older HWH systems, and others, causing some serious damage to outrigger framing, body, and floors. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
I haven't done this, so I'm not speaking from experience, but it certainly seem to have become overcomplicated in this discussion(s). It seems to me that you would have two modes, running and parked. YOu would want to have a lockout to prevent it from going into "Parked" while running. in "Parked" mode, you would want to use four corners just like with jacks. but using the existing airbags, the normal leveling valves would be taken out of the circuit. if you park with one wheel in a hole, so that your hanging froma shock or a bag, you should really have your oxygen supply reevaluated. Hydraulic jacks don't help in this area either, they are quite able to cause a suspention to hang from a bag as well. Gary | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
I have a lock out. I just dont reach over and flip the switchs But there would be no reason some one could not use it in manual going down the road if you keep close to the same ride height. Where you may want to use manual is in going up a steep drive way . With the way I set mine up I use air regulators that I can set at a higher PSI then the ride Hight and all I need to do is flip the switchs for just the rear or all 4 and dont need to do any more it will raise up by it self. You would need to time how long it will take to rise up and when you pull in to the drive way it dont just jump up like the wheel hopping low riders. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
hey Brian, I was speakimg more in terms of if you had an aoutomatic leveling system. I just don't grasp the concept that you will tweak your frame/coach by using your bags for level, what stretches my brain out even further is that somehow hyd. jacks are easier on the frame. Another seperate idea is usting airbags as active suspension, leaning in to corners, this is something I've always been interested in. Gary | ||
| Luis (Sundancer)
Rating: N/A |
And here I am thinking I'm doing pretty good and then I read some of your guys input and come to find out how little I know. Oh well, I'll just go back and read from the start and see if I can grasp what the heck you busnuts are talking about. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, I think that I saw something about active air suspension in some of the more modern coaches. I don't recall where. I remember getting the idea that they brought a passel of problems with them, as well. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Luis- It's enough to make me buy an Eagle. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Tom, I don't think Im going to run out and modify my bus to lean into corners either. Gary | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Gary- I once drove a "fishbowl" on a charter and probably hollered at the kids a dozen time for rocking back and forth so much, that it made the bus unstable.. I felt like an idiot later, when the bus rocked as I dead-headed back. The air leveling system was bad and once rolling, the sensors would keep transferring air from one side to the other.. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
You used to drive kids around huh? That 'splains a lot! Happy new year! Gary | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
"fishbowl" Maybe it was the water sloshing back and forth. When we was kids comming home from school on the old crowns we would wait for the driver to take a fast turn and we would all jump over to the side to try to flip the bus over , It did not work but many a time the drive would kick us all off and make us walk home. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
I've played around a little bit with my manual over automatic leveling system on long sweeping curves and it does improve the cornering. Not that my RTS leans very much anyway, but adjusting the lean of the bus helps keep me in my seat better. --Geoff '82 RTS CA (the real sports car of buses) | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
Geoff, what kind of running weight is your coach? I was told that the RTS was kind of heavy because of the use of a lot of stainless steel, compared to the first sparts car of buses. Thanks. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
Hi, Tom The "sports car", as a lot of people call the RTS, comes from the handling; although when my bus was a shell at 25,000 lbs it did perform well with the 350 HP 6V92. Now it weighs 32,000 lbs and is not quite as quick off the line, but it still corners like a champ. Anyway, I wasn't claiming "race car" of buses... Happy New Year! --Geoff | ||
| Jeff (Jeff)
Rating: N/A |
Driving the RTS, you know you have something under you. Just cannot feel you are driving a 40 foot bus. I hadn't driven air brakes or something this big in 15 years. Geoff gave me a quick lesson in and around the industrial park in Vallejo. 30 - 45 minutes later, I was headed east to Hampton Roads, Virginia. I took cloverleafs and turns faster than I would have in my pickup truck. I could have easily rolled off the rims and stay upright in the RTS, it handles that well in turns. I got lost in Nebraska and ended up going the wrong way on a one way street. I was happily surprised how sharp it turns. I knew there was no sliding the bus around. It is heavy but nimble. I wonder what my 277hp will feel like weighted down with the 4:10 rear gear installed. I really need the DDEC IV tweaked! Happt New Year to all! Went sailing today. A break from spending every weekend day working on the bus. Feel guilty but love the water. Jeff ._¡_____________= / =][][]________[]_| *--O-------------O-==-* "Take Another Road" Member 4:10 Club Rustless not Busless in Buckroe 1988 TMC RTS-06 6V92-TA DDEC IV/V731 da Bubba | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Hey Geoff - Whaddayathink: PD4106 = GMC's 1st Generation "Sports Car of Buses" RTS = GMC's 2nd Generation "Sports Car of Buses" Think back - in the '60s, when the '06 was built, a V-8 w/ a 4-spd was the "hot thing". Add in the light weight aluminum chassis, the four-bellows-per-axle air suspension and nice hefty sway bars and voila - there you have it! Second generation, learn from the first, but update with a fuel-efficient high HP V-6, stainless steel chassis, independent front suspension, along with swoopy styling, and another sports car was born!' I think we all agree that we're talking "handling" here, not drag racing. Anyone can go fast in a straight line - but how does it go when the road turns?? That's where these two shine. So, to me it looks like we both own sports cars, just different generations!! And that's a good thing!! RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Just thought of something else: PD4106 Most have the stock, 275 hp 8V71, and weigh about 26-27,000 converted. Equals around 100 lbs/hp. RTS As Geoff said, his weighs in around 32K with 350 hp. Almost the same at around 100 lbs/hp, w/o getting out the calculator and crunching numbers. See, simply the next generation!! RJ | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
Okay, let's settle this-- meet me in San Rafael and we can race to Cresent City on Hwy 1! --Geoff | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Geoff - I'd love to, but the better half would make me stop in Mendocino and go shopping!! RJ | ||
| Pete RTS/Daytona Rating: N/A |
PD4106 = GMC's 1st Generation "Sports Car of Buses" RTS = GMC's "DELOREAN" of Buses Pete RTS/Daytona .____________ /_][][]/____/[]_| 1989 RTS-II T70206 6V92-TA DDEC-II V731 4.10/24.5 *--O-----------O-* Daytona FL.-Hard Beaches/Soft Women (386)672-0571 P.S. Including S/S bulkheads (model o6) | ||
| Pete RTS/Daytona Rating: N/A |
This is what the "Delorena" of buses can look like Geoff's RTS (Geoff - hope you don't mind that I show off your picture - It's what got me started) /image{geoff's rts} Pete's RTS /image{pet's RTS} | ||
| Pete RTS/Daytona Rating: N/A |
oops - need to put the slashes the other way - sorry This is what the "Delorena" of buses can look like Geoff's RTS (Geoff - hope you don't mind that I show off your picture - It's what got me started)  Pete's RTS  | ||
| Pete RTS/Daytona Rating: N/A |
hmmm - my Dyslexia kicking in big time (it's true) should be --GMC's "D E L O R E A N" of Buses | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"The Delorean of busses!!" So the White line disapears as a transit goes by? WOW! FAST FRED | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
Pete-- Your bus looks really nice! I haven't seen it since before you added the graphics and stripe. --Geoff | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Sharp lookin' buses! Nice job(s)!! |