| Author |
Message |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 5:21 am: | |
Here is a ling to a discussion on dirty fuel , in boats.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020807202831/http://www.trawlerworld.com/c_features_06.htm
The discussion is good , but BEWARE the "Solution " is all advertising Hype for a product.
A better Bus solution (usually not avilable on boats) is to remove the tank and get it steam cleaned.
FAST FRED |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 11:08 am: | |
Fred...not hype on the product..even the Government, read military,nasa,ng,etc.. use them..fuel polishing works...a whole lot cheaper and easier than removing tank and having cleaned... in this area you can have fuel polished for around .10 and up per gallon..normaly avaliable nationwide..do better research then you might have a real answer..to your own questions...you might not even never change oil again either..always better solutions to ongoing problems..gg04 |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 11:15 am: | |
Fuel polishing I've seen dwarfs the system in this site. Admittedly, I've not the time nor inclination to read this site completely, but I'm not sure such a tiny filter qualifies as polishing.
You don't change oil just because its dirty, you chnage it because of molecular reakdown.
gary |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 11:45 am: | |
http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/ try this link its what I'm refering to...this guy is just playing around with systems small enough for recreational boaters..same company just better product and information..no involvment with company just have used their products ever since thev've been in buisness..Oil doesn't wear out or break down on the molecular level it just gets dirty doing its job..clean it and its good as new..at least thats what 27years worth of lab tests show..personal real world versus I think I know.... the reason I and nearly all the old timers have quit posting here..gg04 |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
My little boat carries 1,000 gallons of fuel, I remember what system they use because I considered having tank updates done by outside parties, including polishng. the "Polishing" unt was filtration unti the size of a washing machine drum.
Oil doesn't break down?
What?
"Old guys" don't post here because guys like me claim that Motor oils don't breakdown?
Now I'm confused.
Gary |
dave4106
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
misinformation, gary that's why. gg04 is 100% right. clean the oil and its good as new. just look at a centrifuge system for filtration. dave |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:35 pm: | |
Thank you Gary for the reinforcement....... |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:17 pm: | |
Ah, it all a conspiracy, now I get it. Likely perpetuated by the oil companies that bought all the 500mpg devices to take them off the market.
Gary |
Gary Carter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:47 pm: | |
I'll add my two bits, but is my understanding that the oil does not break down, but the additive packages do.
I have a customer with a fleet of Cat powered truck that have 500,000 miles and no oil change. They do change the filter and have a high efficient by pass filter. In addition some type of additive replacement system and an automatic system to replenish motor oil.
Because some of their fleet runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and can put 4-500,000 miles a year on a truck, they are always being asked to test out new equipment and ways of doing things. |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 3:38 pm: | |
Another great misconception is that oil additives wear out...do a little more research...we had vehicles with over a million miles and no decernible wear...we went to oil filteration to prolong engine and component life not to save oil...as before lab results on oil do not lie...just an area of usage that has never migrated out of the south...personally thought it was wider spread but a couple of posts proved different..gg04 |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 8:17 pm: | |
We use a similar setup, gg04, and are very happy with it. Oil consumption has fallen below levels that I thought possible, so I don't think the rings are getting gummed up, either.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
WA David (Wacoastmci)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 10:06 pm: | |
Wow, 500,000 miles per year on a truck equals 1370 miles per day, at average of 57 miles per hour for 24/7/365. Gives new meaning to the term "keep on trucking"! Mechanics must service those rigs like an Indy 500 pit crew. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 10:20 pm: | |
Good grief guys...
http://www.bga.org.uk/publish/techpub/tn/TRTN2_5.htm
"Synopsis
Deterioration of oils due to oxidation, loss of various properties,
aeration, emulsification etc are all described. Recommendations on
controlling these deterioration mechanisms, and pragmatic means
monitoring and testing oil condition are given. Recommendations are
given on filtration methods, and other means of maintaining oil
systems in good condition and free from contamination. "
------
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=311&relatedbookgroup=Lubr ication
"Soot forms in engine lubricating oil when fuel is not completely
burned. If the soot is not properly dispersed, viscosity increase
due to soot thickening can shorten the useful life of the oil. "
------
A simple search using Google
http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=lubricating+ oil+deterioration
Brings forth an overwhelming amount of data concerning the
life of lubricating oil.
To say that it lasts forever, is just a bit far fetched. Oil deteriorates.
How much; how fast, is dependant on numerous factors.
For the few bucks a year it costs to do an oil change along with a
filter change, the piece of mind is worth the money.
Not to mention... that finding a chunk of metal in that oil strainer
might save a tow from some obscure place..
What's the oil cost for two changes a year? $100..? Guys are
spending big $$$ on led lights, automatic satellite systems and
enhanced GPS mapping... A few bucks for fresh oil is out of the
question? |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:12 am: | |
Thanks John,
Marc did a quick description of how oil breaks down a month or two ago in the "Purging Air from Power steering" thread. the same mechanics apply to engine oil, at least that was how I was taught in every training I ever received on the subject.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one chasing the old guys away with misinformation like new oil is good thing.
Gary |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 2:02 am: | |
I certainly can't say I'm an expert on this subject, but why not say something anyway. I have read in several places that the oil does not break down but becomes more and more contaminated. I have seen products that claim to remove the contaminants through filtration and some sort of heat process that is continuous while the engine is running. Although I can believe that this is quite possible, an oil change seems like a very simple, safe and reasonable alternative to such a system. One of the reasons I remain skeptical about the extended service life of synthetic oils is that it would contaminate just as fast as crude. |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:37 pm: | |
Well, I don't know how I missed this spirited discussion before, but...
#1 I can't believe that anyone would think that there is no such thing as molecular breakdown in engine oil... Even the best oil in the world will break down!
AND #2 I can't believe that anyone who has participated in this bulletin board would say that after all the discussions concerning oil in the past!
Motor oil has continued to be improved to the point where service intervals are being delayed by by as little as 40% and as much as 200%, this is not conjecture, it is hard fact; but oil does not last forever, and I prefer to buy the BEST posible oil, and change both oil and filter(s) at the recommended service intervals.
In anything but a diesel I have never removed black oil from anything I've owned.
Changing your oil properly is the best way to insure long engine life.
Every high quality motor oil will perform it's function perfectly when the oil is new. But the oil begins to break down from the first moment of use. The heat produced by the motor in operation acts much in the same way as the heat in the refining process.
At 239F (115c), oil starts to breakdown, and continues molecular breakdown into lighter and heavier particles. Light molecules escape from the engine as a gas. Heavy molecules remain in the engine to form sludge, gum and varnish, preventing heat dissipation.
Please people, do a little research before you post absurd things like... Motor oil lasts forever!
Teah! and monkeys will fly out of your butt!
Brian |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 1:27 pm: | |
Great, Brian.
Just great.
Run off a few more old guys.. |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 3:55 pm: | |
Yeah, those "old oil lasts forever" guys...
Years ago, I had an EX father-in-law who insisted that motor oil would last at LEAST 10k miles between changes...
"Been doing it for 30 years and never had a problem with it..." he says.
As he liked to put it, "Change my oil once a year, whether it needs it or not!"
I asked him how long he normally kept his cars...
"Two or three years."
But then he says. "Now that I'm semi-retired, this will be the last new car for a while though."
I tell him "Then you ought to change your oil more often with this car..."
I even offered to change his oil for him...
"I've been doing it for thirty years this way".
In the end I had to laugh my a** off (on the inside) the day I pulled up to their house and there was the engine hanging off a cherry picker.
I was a bit surprised though, it lasted almost 80K miles!
So, if you figure roughly a dollar a quart and $2.50 a filter back then, he saved himself about $142.50 for the 19 oil changes he didn't do.
...and in the process cut the engine life roughly in half.
Really brings home that old Fram commercial.
"You can pay me now... or you can pay me later"
Brian |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 6:14 pm: | |
Keep repeating old wifes tales...go look at the lab tests ..your all repeating things I thought 27 years ago... weekly lab tests and real world testing changed that..engine life doesn't decrease it increases...a million and a half miles and just new rings...Hmmm..think I'll stay with my paper towel filter...oil is always clean and lab tests say within manufactures specifications...Every lab tests for breakdown and changes..Saying they are wrong???gg04 |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 6:59 pm: | |
Ahhh....
This is the whole Toilet-Paper/Paper-towel filter thing. Now I get it.
Is there mr. Infomercial on this thread too?
Brian is spot on about the imrovements made on extending oil oife, ant this is a great thing for 100% duty-cycle engines, but you still have to change your oil.
Tell ya what, wet's see what Jim MCI 9 has to say abolut this when he pops back in. this is a guy that keeps stationary engines running for a living.
Gary |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 7:24 pm: | |
gg04-
Re: "old wifes tales"
I just called my brother-in-law's wife and she says that it isn't just
-her tale-, it's common knowledge. And... lab tests seem to indicate
that the composition of oil does indeed deteriorate for numerous
reasons in varied settings. She says that if it's just sitting in a jar
on a shelf someplace, your assumption that it'd last forever is
probably accurate. But if used in an engine in hard use, you'd
best change it with each filter change.
That... she says isn't just her tale, it's the manufacturer's tale
as well. And she's O-O-Oooldd. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 5:57 am: | |
"Keep repeating old wifes tales...go look at the lab tests ..your all repeating things I thought 27 years ago... weekly lab tests and real world testing changed that..engine life doesn't decrease it increases...a million and a half miles and just new rings...Hmmm..think I'll stay with my paper towel filter...oil is always clean and lab tests say within manufactures specifications...Every lab tests for breakdown and changes..Saying they are wrong???gg04
Seems fantastic that with 200 governments world wide , hundreds of truck , car, boat and noisemaker engines being manufactured that NOT one has figured out there being conned into useless oil changes.
Probably a billion galons of lube oil is being WAISTED !!annually by dummy's that cant afford a roll of toilet paper or a roll of paper towel!
What a con job Fram , AC, Wix and all the rest are pulling , telling us to change their e$pensive filters , when a roll of TP would do!
Anyone for a nice Bridge on Brooklyn?
FAST FRED |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 11:18 am: | |
"Wow, 500,000 miles per year on a truck equals 1370 miles per day, at average of 57 miles per hour for 24/7/365. Gives new meaning to the term "keep on trucking"! Mechanics must service those rigs like an Indy 500 pit crew."
Methinks there's a typo involved...50K/year is much more likely.
"Years ago, I had an EX father-in-law who insisted that motor oil would last at LEAST 10k miles between changes..."
We have three International-chassis buses (T444E engines) at work. They specify 350 hours, 6 months, or 10,000 mile oil change intervals. They still get oil changed at 3500 miles, though.
361,000 miles on my truck: Wal-Mart Super Tech 15W-40 oil every 6000 miles (4500-5K if I plow) & a $4 Motorcraft filter. Oil is cheap. Engines are not. |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 11:51 pm: | |
Fast Fred, we WILL be keeping an eye on our oil, including getting the oil analyzed annually. If anything shows up that suggests we change our practices, we will.
Thanks for the reminder to keep my eye on the ball!
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 6:04 am: | |
OIL analysis that I have used ONLY looks for unusual amounts of metal , antifreez or fuel in the oil.
The std. DD report does not state the condition of ANY of the addatives.
There are detergents, dispersants, anti oxidants , anti wear agents , rust inhibitors , friction modifiers and antifoam agents .
Collectivly these provide wear protection,rust and bearing corrosion protection and resistance to foaming.
Renewing THESE is why the oil is usually changed on a Sked.
For me its 7000 miles as the LACK of use is far harder than 75mph/24/7.
FAST FRED |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 10:45 am: | |
Johnny, as I mentioned earlier service intervals have increased pretty dramatically in the last few years, but 30 years ago virtually all oil formulations would not stand up to 10k miles.
The fact is... you can keep your eye on the ball, or the toilet paper roll or the paper towels...But it is without doubt that oil breaks down and past a certain point you are doing harm to your engine regardless of how many additives you "renew"... if you use old oil in your engine.
It makes sence for fleets to use oil analysis to extend oil service intervals because a large fleet will use and dispose of huge quantities of oil.
For the average guy with one truck or bus?
And even with extended intervals you won't see many using their oil for longer than around 15K miles with filters changed every 5K... BECAUSE oil doesn't last forever.
You can keep your Brooklyn Bridge Fred, I'm with Johnny... Oil is cheap, engines are not.
And you can believe it's a conspiracy, but In the 25 years I've been a diesel mechanic I've just about seen it all.
Brian |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 3:42 pm: | |
Well folks it seems you all need more research..Unless you burn it,beyond operating parameters it will nearly last forever.. This was brought up concerning protecting your engine or any thing else oil lubricated or cooled. 1. What is the filtering ability of your factory full flow oil filter. 2. What is the filters flow ability? 3. At what engine rpm does the flow rate exceed the filters volume ability and the bypass open and let unfiltered oil straight back to the engine? An extra, better filtering system seems like a good idea then even if you change oil every 7 to 10,000 miles. 4. A real lab will check for everything even additives. Have enough lab results to prove that just go to the above site and look..But since you seem to know everything..At what temp. is oil base pulled off of blend? What is the lower limit of live steam(in degrees)? How do you re-refine oil? At what temp. does oil actually start to break down (change composition)? And one trick question..if your a P.E. you should know this one,How many gallons of raw crude from the Duker Bottoms can you carry on a shovel on a 80F day? gg04 |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 8:42 pm: | |
As Jack Benny used to say: Well!
I guess that's a wrap, guys. Change the filter, keep the oil.
Funny part is.... The cost of a lab test, the time, the effort...
Finding a lab and getting the oil to it.... is more time, money and
effort than draining and refilling the lousy 8 gallons.
But hey.... |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 5:49 am: | |
A lab test that checks the engine condition is easy to do and only costs $15.00 from DD.
It is GREAT insurance , and can be an engine saver!!
How someone would get the oil CONDITION in terms of ITS chemical/addatives makeup done is beyond me.
Work for Shell in the lab , perhaps.
FAST FRED |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 7:42 am: | |
Even DD recommends an oil analysis test to be taken at certain
intervals. Draining and refilling both rear end and transmission
isn't a bad idea also, if a guy's just bought the unit, and/or at some
defined schedule. Finding tell-tale metal, or the absence of it, is
worth the expense.
But DD never recommended -not- changing the oil. And it seems
peculiar to me, why anyone that invests so much time, effort and
money to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, is so willing to deny
it the one crucial thing it needs to survive...
Hell, even at MacDonald's, they toss out their French Fry oil once
a year..... |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 8:23 am: | |
Well John, either they changes their oils or they screws their engines'...
But they don't have to listen to us, they only have to wait awhile.
Hate to see what the inside of their engines look like then.
Brian |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 11:01 am: | |
All to lazy to do a little research??? A real lab test will show you the complete composition of the oil..If your not getting this then you are only getting a contaminent test..Contaminent tests are great for PM but they must be done with a baseline test...In fleet use you still do a base line everytime you have to change oil...without knowing what is in the oil, you run the risk of using wrong assumptions..We did weekly tests of fleet to catch problems before they began.. Join a lab service if you actually use your coach(30,000 or more miles a year imhop)it will help lengthen the life of your drive train..Look into extra filtering...It works..Go look at the insides of posted engines with over a million miles..The U.S. Gov ,state, and this many fleets plus oil companies can't be all wrong can they?? Check the research,read the Fed Gov , University,and independent lab tests and studies.. . There are 10 or more companies serving the market with everything from centrefuges to filter systems, and all with great warranties and guaranties..If it didn't work would so many people be using these products? Are we all wrong? Are is this refusal to accept,or investigate something different just an ego thing? Last post..gone to Texas..gg04 |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:45 am: | |
"The U.S. Gov ,state, and this many fleets plus oil companies can't be all wrong can they?? Check the research,read the Fed Gov , University,and independent lab tests and studies.. . There are 10 or more companies serving the market with everything from centrefuges to filter systems, and all with great warranties and guaranties..If it didn't work would so many people be using these products? Are we all wrong? Are is this refusal to accept,or investigate something different just an ego thing? "
IF this were true it would be done on EVERY engine in the world today.
Since no oil changes is not common
, either we assume its hype ,
or every gov , engine mfg and engine operator in the WORLD is DUMB..
Certainly most Govs are corrupt MORONS at saving cash ,
but the rest are in business to PROFIT.
Why would almost every corp in the world avoid making extra money?
IF it worked, there would be a STAMPEED.
The gent that invented the modern coolant overflow recovery system ,
HAD a pattent ,
yet BECAUSE the ability to remove all the air from the coolant allowed Mfg to make e$pensive radiators 25% smaller (therefore CHEAPER) the Idea was taken worldwide in about 2 years, patent be dammed!
I had an old bypass sustem on my Porsche that used "Domascus Earth" as filter , (far finer filtration than toilet paper) in the 60's.
So the IDEA has been out there a long time at least 50 years , and is still being ignored by 99.99999% of the world , for some reason.
HMMMM
FAST FRED |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 8:39 am: | |
Well, okay then, why didn't you say so in the first place... Oh, but WAIT, for the last 20 years I've worked for the State Of Nevada as a Diesel Mechanic ... We change our oil...
Also, I work with a guy who was employed for 9 years in the motor pool for the U.S. Government and they changed their oil...
AND I work with a guy who worked for years at the airport here, and THEY changed their oil too...
It always amazes me how many people say "the US goverment and the States do it..." when nothing could be further from the truth.
Brian |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:44 am: | |
I'd like to add the observation (having missed most of this thread while in Florida) that improvement in refining practices along with metallurgy over the past 20 years contributes to extending the useful life of engine oil and engines themselves.
Synthetic oil was explained to me by a Chemistry professor who worked at Union Oil in Brea California, as simply and effort to recreate the "best" fraction of the stuff usually supplied as motor oil out of the ground. Its development was made necessary by the high engine temperatures witnessed with jet engines and applied to motor vehicles later.
The percentage of "best" fraction is obtained by the better refining techniques and is much more stable and resistent to breakdown and polymerization (sludging) at normal (auto) engine temperatures. Not perfect, just much better.
I'm a changer, myself. |