| Author |
Message |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 9:15 pm: | |
Since I'm doing an all-12V conversion, I'm seriously contemplating building my own genset from a small industrial engine (from something like a small forklift) spinning a powerful alternator from either a HD truck/bus or a Premier Power Welders high-amp unit. Any suggestions would be welcome--gas or diesel.
No Japanese minitruck diesels--they are effectively nonexistent in this area. |
T. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 9:26 pm: | |
Johnny
Where are you located, I have a Perkins Diesel that Is off a thermo unit that you are welcome to. If you live In the Sandusky Ohio area It would probally worth It.
Tony |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 11:04 pm: | |
I'm in New England, so probably not.
That's a truck reefer motor, yes? What kind of size (dimentions & weight) & power are we talking about? |
frank-id
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 11:35 pm: | |
Check this site for a neat small 12 volt generator. I made one a few years ago. A schoolie saw my work and would not leave without the generator. This is really a handy unit for way out back. Frank
http://www.theepicenter.com/tow02077.html |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 12:06 am: | |
New England?? Where in New England Johnny... I'm originally from North Dartmouth right outside of New Bedford Mass. and still have family there.
Brian |
T. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 4:11 am: | |
Johnny
They are small and dont have much HP 30 or 40 HP
but as I understand It they will run forever on a gal. of fuel, the size Is about 20 X 20 X 14
they are a cute little thing |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 6:23 am: | |
Simplest would be a 12 volt BUS alternator , some are 300A.
You would need a nice large sine wave inverter if you want to use air cond .
Actually it would be better to use a 24V house setup with a 24v/300a alt , as running two air cond could be done with the Trace 2440 .
A simple speed controll (as used on welders) would allow the engine to slow down when loads are light , this would lower the noise level and wear as the engine RPM could match the load.
Biggest advantage is there would NOT be the need to greatly oversize the gen set (as most are stuck with ) greatly increasing the units service life.
The inverter could give the power for the LRS each time an air cond kicks on , rather than excess capacity in the gen set.
The newest boating setup uses this with SMART dc motors for refrigeration and air cond , and almost no extra power is needed to operate normally heavy starting loads.
Trucks today have DC air cond rooftops , but at only 9000btu at least 3 would be required , and there are no basement models yet , so you would be stuck with the RV carbunkle look.
FAST FRED |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 7:37 am: | |
Hi Tony, if Johnny is not, I certainly am.
I would like to convert my Generac from Gas to Diesel.
Gary |
bobm
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 9:54 am: | |
I use a 2-53 detroit and modified the oil pan to allow it to sit at a 45 degree angle to easily fit in the bay on my 4104. Runs a 15KW brush type generator. All military surplus stuff bullet proof and cheap |
T. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 10:09 am: | |
Gary
If Johnny dont want It you are more than welcome to It, I am leaveing for Florida the 15th and If you get It before then Ok If not It will be after april 15th before you can pick It up.
Tony |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 12:07 pm: | |
Perkins engines are sooty at low loads. I have one. It is probably way too big for Johnny's project. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 12:13 pm: | |
How about pushing a 10KW Generator head?
Gary |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 12:48 pm: | |
bobm,
Id like to see some pic's of your 2-53 gen set up.
I would think that would be noisy? How loud is it and how do you keep the rpms set for under load or a light load?
Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon |
Mci102
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 4:13 pm: | |
If you are planning to turn a 300 amp alternator you don't need a engine as large as a 2-53. Look at the ample power web site (can search"living on 12 volts"). They sell a small DC generator that uses a Kabota diesel driving a belt connected alternator. It can be very economical to use and made very quiet. You can make it yourself. The motor is a 4 hp kubota diesel single cyl electric start, designed for continuous duty runing emergency hyway signs, costs about $1,400. Balmar or Ample power can supply a hi output alternator and regulator (3 stage). These generators are used mainly for marine applications are large enough to keep the batteries up lights on and small motors running. They are not big enough to run an airconditioning system |
Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:34 am: | |
Hey T.(Bluegrass) I live in Southern Ohio, and would like very much to have the Perkins. I can pick it up any time after Friday Jan.07. I've been to Bussin' '05, and headed home Thursday. Thanks. kristinsgrandpa. (emjjr@outdrs.net) |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 1:09 am: | |
I plan on running 2 or 3 9800BTW 12V roof A/C units. I'm planning NO 120V anywhere in the bus except for a shore power connection.
Aren't most of the big 250-300A bus alternators gear-driven, water-cooled, and 24V? I don't think that will work.
The rule of thumb is 2HP per Kw, right? If so, that means to run a 300A alternator at 12V, I need...
*pokes calculator*
...about 7HP?
OK, that won't be enough for the A/C.
Hmm, back to the drawing board... |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 2:55 am: | |
I'd suggest using a 1.5 or 1.6 liter Volkswagen diesel engine, out of a late 70s or later Volkswagen auto like a Rabbit, Golf or Jetta.
Pros - 40 KW when winding out at 5000 RPM, about 15 KW at a more docile and reasonable 1800 RPM. Very low fuel consumption, about half a gallon per hour at 1800 RPM depending on load. Strong enough internally and externally to take a turbo if you need more low end power. Cheap and readily available at most wrecking yards. The 1.5 is not sought after by most VW tinkerers and can be had for around $150 in running order. Factory service manuals also easily available. Engine weighs around 300lbs complete. Water cooled so you can use it to heat the bus as well. Can be run on straight vegetable oil if you have a good filter setup. The auto engines are setup from the factory to run tilted over at around 30 degrees or so from vertical, so they have a low profile and will fit under the floor of even a transit bus. Still in production, from mid 70s to present day.
Cons: It's an automotive engine, so it will need some custom engineering to mate it to a generator head. It's a German prechamber diesel, so you're going to have to learn a few things about their peculiarities. The Germans have an elegant design philosophy that is different from typical American design. They tend to be more maintenance intensive but not anything like Italian designs. You just have to remember to be religious about valve adjustments and timing belt changes. You'll need a set of good metric tools to work on it. There are also some special tools needed that are specific to this engine, if you get into doing serious rebuild work, which you'll most likely have to do on a junkyard motor.
My coach is also going to be 12/24 volt house system only, with inverters used to provide line voltage to those things that need them. This is the engine I'm planning to use. |
john wood
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:04 pm: | |
So why not go the whole way and mount an engine driven compressor for the a/c system on yer DC genset? I am sure you can get some rather large ones or use multiple auto size ones. Then you don't need a huge inverter either! |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:46 pm: | |
John Wood,
The "SpaceLiner" Eagle takes just this approach.
He has a 3 cyl diesel from a lawn tractor running on veggie oil and it powers both an alternator head and a compressor.
Lots of interesting ideas are running around in that guy's head!
Refreshing guy to speak to!
Onward and Upward |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 11:03 pm: | |
Gary, a 10 KW generator head is no problem. My Perkins 4108 engine drives a 12.5 KW generator with no problems. The problem comes when you try to use only about a third to half of the engine power. If I build a conversion I will have an 8 KW generator driven by a smaller engine.
I am thinking that I may be able to solve the soot problem with my engine by havng the injectors changed to smaller injectors and the injection pump set up for the smaller injectors and lower horse power. Just because we have a 12 to 15 KW generator head does not mean we have to put out that much power. I think the Kubota, Isuzu and Yanmar diesel engines may produce less soot at partial load.
Johnny, since you want to run a DC generator, you may be able to run your engine at 1200 RPM most of the time. Look for an engine that is smooth and reliable at lower speeds. The VW engine has a timing BELT. Many automotive diesel engines have a timing chain that can break. Many commercial diesels have all gear drive to the camshaft. Look into using banded belts for the generator drive. They outlast pairs of individual belts because they have only one common back for all two or three belts. They do not come in all sizes, so you need to know what is available before you design. Gats has them. |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 12:02 am: | |
There's nothing wrong with a belt or chain driven camshaft. You need to have an hour meter attached to the engine and be certain to change the belt every 1,000 hours of engine operation, but that's no big deal. With perhaps a 15% duty cycle and 24/7/365 occupancy, that's almost an annual event. For weekend use during the summer, you wouldn't have to worry about it for several years.
Not everything in this world has to be commercial quality. Price/performance ratio does matter. Even if you destroy the VW engine, they are so common and so cheap that it's not the end of the world.
I've got all you guys beat when it comes to "system integration." I'm thinking about having the AC compressor and the house generator driven by a hydraulic motor. Why? Well, a hydraulic motor runs on hydraulic pressure, and it doesn't matter what the source of that pressure is, be it a VW diesel engine driving a pump, or perhaps a pump hung off of the PTO of a V730. ;)
I did give some thought to using the power steering system of the coach as a source of hydraulic oil pressure to run the AUX stuff when underway, but I doubt it has the capacity. At any rate, the valving system required to automatically shut off everything else when pressure is needed to steer the bus would probably cost more than adding a second pump to the engine. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 12:03 pm: | |
The general rule of thumb is that you need two hp for every full KW of output. Therefore a 10 KW alternator would require approximately 20 hp for full output. HP is generally measured with no exhaust system and no auxiliary equipment like a fan or alternator, so allow for that.
Bearings in automobile engines are generally not designed for side loading like would occur if you were trying to belt drive a unit.
Automobile engines are designed (usually) for flywheel, clutch, pressure plate and SAE type housing to connect between the crankshaft and the transmission.
Although they may exist, I have never seen an adapter designed to convert an automotive engine to either belt drive or direct, in line, output.
Hydraulic drive alternators have been tried, and there are some on the market, but I have tried them all and never found one that had a speed control that was adequate to maintain 60 (or 50) hertz output. I had to pull a couple of 40 KW units out of a super yacht one time and the cost was enormous. Never again.
Richard |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 12:57 am: | |
Don't you lose a lot of power in hydrualics? I am dreaming of adding a electic motor (with clutch) above the coach air conditioning in MC-8. The idea is to run the coach air on Bus engine,shore power or generated power. Use house battery charging system to run condensor and evaporator fans when on generator or shore power. Maybe add a 24 VDC altenator to the Generator.A little bit of wiring to rework to design. Anyone know how nuch power to run the factory AC compressor 3 cly
Carrier at mid speed? Anyone try this before. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 6:05 am: | |
"Anyone know how nuch power to run the factory AC compressor 3 cly
Carrier at mid speed? Anyone try this before."
AS a guess try 25 hp with a well cooled coach , perhaps doubble that in a hot box.
Since a 25 hp electric motor is as big as your DD , is not being tried.
FAST FRED |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 8:28 pm: | |
Hydraulics are actually one of the most efficient means of transmitting power from source to load.
To do what I'm trying to do with electric or mechanical transmission methods would be rather complex and inefficient. |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 10:40 pm: | |
Phil, the last I rmember, a person had to allow about 30% loss in power to use hydraulics that way. Have you seen something that suggests better efficiency now?
Thanks.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 2:55 am: | |
I have some US Army educational materials which I am studying which state that hydraulic power transmission systems are the most efficient, followed by electric and mechanical systems.
I can put these materials on-line someplace for you if you wish to read them. They are in PDF and DOC format. These materials are geared towards hydraulic systems in aircraft, but the basic principles are the same. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 6:19 am: | |
"hydraulic power transmission systems are the most efficient, followed by electric and mechanical "
In aircraft weight , repairibility and ability to bypass for a backup is all part of the "efficency".
The newewst fighters are using a hyd electric setup , where an electric source powers the acxtuator which consists of a hyd pump built into the unit with a hyd motor.
This is far lighter than having lots of hyd tubing under pressure , pumps , accumulators and cooling drag.
The big advantage is multiple paths can provide power in the event of battle damage , and the electric motor can be kept from overloading .
This is a seamless setup for the driver , no systems knowledge is required.
Unfortunatly the Frogs crashed a DC 10 years ago when an improperly latched cargo door blew down , wiping out the controll hyd circuit.
Has they better training , they would have known to turn on the Auto Pilot , all electric circuits in the uneffected roof of the plane.
They could have landed instead of crashing.
Efficency is in the eye of the user,"Knowledge is Power".
FAST FRED |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:01 pm: | |
Phil, I was asking more out of idle curiosity than anything. If it's not much effort to make a clip of what you are talking about, then I'll sure look at it. Don't put yourself out over it.
In machinery, the swash plate pumps and motors have become pretty much the standard in use, so I suspect that they are a bit more efficient than the equipment that I have experience with.
On really big stuff, electric seems to be way up there for efficiency. Our hydro plants are over 98%, for example. Cruise ships of 100,000 tons are using electric motors for the mains, as well.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |