| Author | Message | ||
| Hank Rating: N/A |
On a typical bus conversion, Eagle, MCI... 1. when would an automatic transmission be better than a manual transmission 2. when would a manual transmission be better than an automatic transmission? Are there times when one type is better or worse than the other and why? Can anyone elaborate on this idea please? Tbankyou. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Rating: N/A |
__. Oh, boy, here we go again! | ||
| Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A |
Auto is better if you are metally or physically unable to shift a manual. and maybe if you spen all your time in rush hour metro traffic Auto is better for resale as well Manual is better in all other situations. 1. better fuel Milage 2. Better engine control 3. less complex 4. Can engine brake without jake | ||
| Luis (Sundancer)
Rating: N/A |
It depends on what condition your knees are in. always for question 1, never for 2. Actually I drive both part time, and automatics always are the preference with all our drivers. I'd bet also that an automatic will sell easier than a stick. Just my opinion. Luis | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
I had an exceptionally strong sprung clutch in mine as well as a knee needing surgery, and it sure did not take many rush hour stop and go times to have me shopping for an automatic. Clutch pressure seems to vary lots on buses I have found, Two Dogs has the winning low effort non pressure assisted clutch I have ever seen in a bus. Makes you think they have put a VW bug clutch in there by mistake. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Hank, George, Infoseeker, n7f0vl...... Gee man, whazzup? | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
look at it this way too....the worst thing you can do to an automatic,is let it sit without useing it.........R.V.'s sit all the time,usualy 99% of the time... | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Yeah.... but uhhh... I've seen clutch throwup bearings puke and corrode onto the shaft, plates stick to the disc, etc... Nothing fares well sitting too long, engine included. (Not to mention people.....) | ||
| Lin Rating: N/A |
Auto is obviously easier. A lot depends on the type of driving you do. I have a manual but find it to be a nuisance in hilly areas that may require starting often from dead stops going up a winding mountain road. Imagine the fun of driving a manual in San Francisco with cars you can't even see pulling up six inches from your rear at stop lights. Ah, the joy of fighting rollback! That stuff is not great for the clutch either. Out on open roads though, it barely makes a difference. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
How YOU percieve the difference between 9 or 10mpg and 5 or 6mpg may answer your Query. FAST FRED | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
about the second time they pay 7000 for a rebuild ,they will see the light | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Fast Fred, there you go again with that old wives tale. Since you never had an automatic, the least you could do is give us a reference for your {mis) information. | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
I only get 9......but,that's at 60 mph....at 70,it goes down to 7 mpg..............hey Don ,the guy that had to run back to the back of your bus & put it in reverse wasn't that fond of automatics either...........  | ||
| BrianMCI Rating: N/A |
Like I said before, you really have to sift through the things Fred says to glean any useful information. This time, of course, you have to sift with a little extra determination. First of all, Fred tends to EXAGGERATE...greatly Over the long haul, there simply is no form of transmission you could install in a coach that would ever give you TWICE the mileage as any other tranny... Just not going to happen. However, Fred is right in one sence, mileage-wise there is one transmission that will out-perfom any other... an automatic with a lock-up converter and overdrive will give much better fuel milage over the long haul... As far as rebuilds go, in our shop, over the last 15 years we have had, to my knowledge, three road rangers apart, and only god knows how many clutch jobs were done during that time. The only Allison that needed to be repaired in that time was one installed in a GROSSLY overloaded paint stripper that weighs about 55,000 lbs...It lasted 10 years before loosing a gear, but was still driven in to the tranny shop AND cost a lot less than 7000 to repair. The fact is we have about an equal number of 15 speed Fuller Road Rangers in our trucks versus Allison transmissions... Maybe a few more Allisons than Road Rangers... and by a wide margin we have more trouble with clutches, throw-out bearings, linkage, air shift lines, and the transmissions themselves, in the Fuller equipped trucks than in the Allison rigs. That's a fact Jack... Your mileage may vary Brian | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
I ageree with Fred , There has been meny that have gone from the 4 speed to the automatic and some with the gear changes to keep the RPMs the same AND ALL lost 3 to 4 MPG . And some Had over heating problems. In newer DDC the 4 strokes its not as bad and most are autos any way .That way they can hire stupid people for less money to drive em. I have driven both autos and some manuals. The GMC's with the wet clutch is the smothest starting out almost like a auto. Im keeping my Manual 4 speed. The newer the bus the closer the MGP will be from a 4 speed man to a auto. In older buses it will be as much as 3 to 5 mpg loss with the auto. And more heating problems . Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Luis (Sundancer)
Rating: N/A |
Bruce, you hit it right when you said Oh boy, here we go again. | ||
| Philris Rating: N/A |
As a fleet manager (primarily cars and 4 medium duty trucks) I can tell you that the trucks were much more expensive to maintain until I switched to autos. Never have had to repair the auto but have done a few clutches. The average fuel mileage did not noticably change. | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
My bus has a 10-speed Roadranger. Super transmission and a blast and fun to drive. HOWEVER, if it was my lift knee causing problems rather than my right, I would be looking... ...at things quite differently. I will even suggest that if you have a choice in the matter... ...GO WITH THE AUTOMATIC!! Much easier to drive the bus. Sorry, but true. Good luck. | ||
| BrianMCI Rating: N/A |
I would love to hear from these people who've changed out a 4 speed Spicer to an Allison with a lock-up converter and are getting significantly less fuel mileage... Nevermind HALF the mileage, as Fred insists. Over the long haul the difference in mileage between the two types of transmission will be just as Phil's real world fleet showed "...mileage did not noticably change." The real reason the vast majority of trucks and virtually all coaches, are now being built with automatics is that maintenance costs for a manual transmission far exceed that for an automatic over the life of the vehicle. Fleet managers like Phil buy vehicles that will cost them the least to keep running over the life of the vehicle... including fuel costs. It really isn't that difficult to teach the average Joe to drive a stick, we do it all the time in our training program. But it is without question that a below average driver CAN disable a manual equipped truck in about the time it takes you to turn around... Brian | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
to help clear up some mis-comceptions..... the ht 740 and ht750 have lock-up torque convertors.... the only time the torque convertor is used is in FIRST GEAR.....so if you're in top gear, its direct... same as if you had a manual tranny.... | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
bernie didn't tell him that | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Brian & Philris, it sounds like your problem is the OPERATORS. For the typical marginally-skilled fly-by-nite driver, yes, get him a slushpump & the lowest-power engine available in the vehicle. For someone who actually knows how to drive, go with a handshaker & more power. At work: 1992 Mitsubishs Fuso LCF rollback, cooked 2 slushpumps (I think Allisons) in 250K. 1972 Ford F-800 HD rollback: original, unrebuilt Clark 5-speed. 1979 International S1700 hoist: Original, unrebuilt Spicer 5-speed, over 1,000,000 miles. 1987 GMC R-35 hoist: will be on third THM-475 with 380,000 miles. 1986 F-350 hoist: Original T-19, one syncro replaced, 550,000 miles. | ||
| Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A |
My 4 speed V drive spicer regualrly gets twice the milage of my Dad's V730...of course I have a 6-71 and he runs a 8-71.......but I run it hard and he drives like the little old lady from Pasadena....so that should even out the baseline fuel usage differences. I know that the Charter outfit that does most of our maint lost 3-4 by going with the autos.....that is until the latest generation. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Brian and Jim, you and I are sure going to look foolish when Fred posts the links to the independent testing that proves what he said. By the way, just where ARE those references? | ||
| Bob Belter
Rating: N/A |
Ho, BusNutz, OK, and I am probably the ONLY BusNut who removed an automatic transmission (DRD750) from a bus, (Eagle -01) and installed a manual (10 speed overdrive Roadranger RTO 1110). This was done in conjunction with removing the old slobbering "green" Detroit 6v92t, and installing a Cummins M-11. That old Allison was as frantic as a teen age girl!!! All it did was look for some other gear than wherever it was at the moment!!! The Roadranger works great, and the fuel mileage with the Cummins/Roadranger for all the fuel pumped into the bus, (including some diesel heating fuel) for 18,000 miles is 10.6 mpg. At 65mph, I'm moseying along at about 1350rpm. Ask the two cycle/ (old) Allison guys how they do????? BTW, the Allison World transmission is quite efficient. The old 740/750 series is very tough, but NOT efficient!!! Take a look at the size of the transmission oil cooler for these beasts if you have any doubt. Clutch pedal force(double disc 14") is no problem. Shifting up, no problem, but downshifting, not too easy or certain. Requires some skill and learning -- Yuh, I still am learning -- From time to time, an observer of my shifting will wonder how I ever managed to land on an aircraft carrier. Enjoy/s/Bob | ||
| BrianMCI Rating: N/A |
Now THAT'S something I gotta see... an Eagle -01 making a carrier landing! Man that Cummins/Road Ranger combo must really get that old Eagle flying! Did you catch the three wire with that Eagle, Bob? <grin> Brian | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"From time to time, an observer of my shifting will wonder how I ever managed to land on an aircraft carrier." If you could figure a way to put a transmission MEATBALL on the dash your shifting technique could constantly correct. Filming and reviewing EACH shift might help too! Perhaps you need more time with a BSO (Bus Shifting Officer) aboart to critique your technique . FAST FRED | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Re: "That old Allison was as frantic as a teen age girl!!! All it did was look for some other gear than wherever it was at the moment!!! " It's a little difficult (and unfair) to compare a poorly functioning automatic to a properly working standard. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
I get 7 to 7.5 miles per gallon (depending if I go over 65 or not) with my 32,000lb RTS, 350 HP and V730. I could get eight if I went 55-60 mph. That's good enough for me-- shifting sucks. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
But Geoff, aren't you secretly dreaming of changing to a stick and changing to 15 mpg? Some people say that would be the case. Don't count on it though, my mileage went from 7 with the stick to 9 with the automatic I put in mine, and no more shifting either. Sometimes the words "sour grapes" comes to mind when this discussion starts (which it often does of course) | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Did you replace a direct-drive manual with an OD auto? Or did your regear the rear axle at the same time? Slushpumps are for people with one leg. | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
Don I call BS. "my mileage went from 7 with the stick to 9 with the automatic " I would say it want from 9 to 7 with the auto. Or your driving and RPM use was bad. I would say if the bus your looking for had mostly stick shifts it older and the stick will get better MPG . Most older DD with older Autos will get poor MPG compaired to the Stick shift driven right. The newer computer controled motors with autos if you could find a stick the MPG would be close to the same. But older non computer controled the stick will do better. THe best thing is leave the stick shift buses to the pros. Your average driver is too stupid to drive the stick shift correctly. And some are to stupid to post any thing but sarcasm or flame the poster. Some posters here had owened buses longer then some of you been alive. Why dont you try to help or shut up if you dont know what your talking about or can add any thing to help with what the oranginal poster asked. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Paso1 Rating: N/A |
I like Both. I'm Glad I have the choice. But the Choice is with the Person laying out the cash. What does anyone elses opinion matter. | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
I'm not sure fuel mileage is a factor in selecting a transmission. Now before I get flamed here are facts relative to my personal experiences. I have recorded every gallon of fuel that has ever gone into my coaches and have the records to prove it so with the exception of not being able to isolate fuel used for the generator here is the pertinent poop (that's a technical term). 1987 Prevost, 8V92 475 HP, Allison five speed, 755 (I think) over 14 years 5.6 MPG. Most of the time towing a Grand Cherokee, bus weight 41,000. 1997 Prevost, Series 60 470 HP, World Transmission 6 speed, over 9 months, 8000 miles 7.9 MPG, again towing the Grand Cherokee, bus weight 46,000. At about 62 MPH in the 1987 I'm turning 1800 RPM and the same speed in the 1997 I'm turning 1600 RPM. Books available in Knoxville, TN for inspection. | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
them horseys is nice huh ?? I had kinda the same thing....a 400 cummins pulling 80,000 (7 mpg) & a 200 cat 3208 pulling 80,000 (7 mpg)...but the little cat was working it's ass off & didn't last long...3 broken rings & they only have one comp. ring per cyl.... | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Gosh Brian, you don't need to start calling names, this was a discussion I thought. I think at age 67 also not many of you have owned your buses longer than I been alive as you insinuate. Interestingly enough, the bus I am referring to is a GMC 4905, JUST LIKE YOURS! With hundreds of thousands of miles trucking in my own truck, I always felt I knew how to shift and drive ok, and actually preferred a stick when I bought my bus. The reason my mileage increased was due to the transmission enabling me to cruise at lower RPM as GMC/Allison/Detroit intended. My 9 miles per gallon is possible because with a VS2-8 transmission (The original automatic installed in a 4905) the RPM decreases dramatically. My normal cruise at 1600 rpm at 73 mph is simply a more fuel efficient rpm. If you look at the fuel consumption figures in the DD book, you will find that even DD agrees with me on this. I can also agree with those who simply say, fuel mileage should probably not be the reason for changing from stick to auto or vice versa. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
Don, I agree with you if mileage was the only consideration. What convinced me to stay away from the V730 was poorer mileage, more heat generated on account of it, and a percieved additional risk of failures, all taken tegether. I've noticed that some posters are saying that the risk of breakdown is no worse with the auto, so that may not matter, in the end. The additional heat issue seems to be real, though. How about your case, with the VS2? Does it produce much extra heat? Thanks. Tom Caffrey PD-4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Yeah Tom, a whole lot of heat, but ONLY when you are in what is called by the book "hydraulic" (torque converter engaged) mode. This only occurs when you are at less than the 15-20 mph or so, in the end that almost never happens except when starting for a few seonds. Once you are above 20, no heat is produced, and the heat exchanger is actually heating the transmission fluid from the coolant. For me, I would never put a V730 in a 4106 unless I had some way to restore the stick gear ratio, or vastly improve the end ratio to cruise at lower RPM. A guy bought a 4106 in Charleston SC with a VS2 and wanted me to drive it from there to Topeka KS for him. That combination was the sweetest I have ever seen, mileage was 10.5 mpg and I was in a real hurry to get home. | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
Well Don, I talked to 3 others with 4905's just like mine and when they went to Autos thay lost MPG . In Mine with the stick on the last trip I got 8.5 But was mostly climbing mounatins in oregon . Now if I run it flat out at 2100 rpm all day Im sure my MPG would go down. Ok your the 1% that got better MPG . 99% it went down. And this is mostly a GMC thing you also changed you final gear ratio the the trans swap the not going with the auto rear end ratio. I would like to know what your MPG if you drove 60 mph with both trans ? AT 73 the stick would be at 2100 and the mpg would suck then. But can you drive the auto at 55 and not be lugging it? Im sure your bus will do good on flat land . The origanal VS2-8 also had a lower rear end when Installed in a 4905 becouse of the over drive in the trans I bet your bus is a dog on the hills. A lot has to do with tire size. And where you drive your bus. What your rpm at 55 mph. Im sure you cant drive 73 every place. The best thing any one can do is buy the newest bus you can afford and most will have autos any way. I was told by a ex allison R&D tech that the V730 was a transit trans the did not fair well used on long haul over the road buses. True or not thats what he said in his email He now works in R&D for Voth trans. Most the problems I heard come from change out to the autos mostley over heat problems and poor MPG . Most factory auto buses are set up ok from the factory only poorer MPG with the older buses then the same bus with the stick. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
You got that right pretty well, no disagreement in general. To answer your questions, at 55 it is even sweeter, churning along at a frantic 1225 rpm, just above the maximum torque point of 1200 rpm. Lugging never happens, this is an automatic and it just shifts down of course, but it is so close to shift point, I preferred to just drop it to the next lower gear when running 55, which almost exactly matches the standard gearing for fourth (and is locked of course). Even then, I would not recommend one for use by people that live or travel mostly in the steep country. The reason mileage drops in a GM switch to V730, is the gearing is lower, the rpms go up, and back to the DD book, fuel use goes up too! It isn't the automatic, it is the increase in RPM! I don't like the V730, several friends have bought several new ones during short periods of time, and for highway use they seem to be short lived for sure, your R&D friend was exactly right. They became readily available a while back when transits were being scrapped, and all the dealers with a pile of them were really pushing us 4905 and 4106 people to switch, they usually then sold several to one person even. We have turned this into a GM V drive discussion, I have no first hand experience with the T drive problems, fuel consumption, speed, etc. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
One other thing that I remember was that a fellow in southern California said that they had discovered that the 730 could have a dragging clutch. He said that they built and sold a kit that would prevent that drag. This was a fellow named Loren, who works for or runs Dreamliner Coach. We've bought a few parts from him and he's been reasonable, so far. He also gave me some early guidelines on how to choose a coach and I put that information to good use. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
I have never heard that V730's are "short lived"-- what is the basis for such a broad statement? I have 150,000 miles on mine and it works perfect. As far as I know the V730 is an adapted 740 with one less gear. What is prone to failure? --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
I was thinking about a V730 for my 4905 But from what others told me they had over heating problems lower MPG and some say the wish they had the 4 speed back in. And been doing some research into it and Im going to pass , I was looking for a other brand of V drive Voth has one but was also a transit bus type not intended to long distance driving as told to me by Voth here is the copy of the email I recived. Dear Brian, I am assuming you are in North America. So Robert Muller from Germany asked me to contact you. Yes you can still buy 863 W7 angle drive parts. Yes we currently manufacture D863.3 with the W7 angle drive which you are looking for. We are currently working with a bus reconditioned who is purchasing the newer transmissions to retrofit old MCI coaches with the 6V92 being removed and installing the Detroit 50 Series and Cummins B Series. Yes all Voith would have to be with RH engines. I am sorry Voith does not manufacture Auto shift transmissions. Yes we do replace the Allison V731. But please be aware sometimes when going to newer technology transmissions would also mean sometimes going to newer technology engines because of the electronics available and needed for the modulation signal. In your email, if I understand correctly your buses are mainly used in Highway application. To help you further along in a decision Voith is a intercity transit transmission. Voith is not installed in any over the road applications and would not want to be. Of course coming from years of Allison experience I believe the V731 was originally designed for intercity operation not over the road. Best Regards, Brett Bell Service Manager DIWA Bus Transmissions North America Voith Turbo Inc. I have other E mails saying the same about the The V type trans. Some phone calls I did not record any so no way to post. Rating Net input power (max).............................275 hp (205 kW) Input speed range................................2000 - 2600 rpm; 2100 - 2600 rpm for V 730 Net input torque (max).......................890 lb ft (1207 N·m) Vehicle Weight...................up to 40,000 lb (18,144 kg) GVW Mounting V 730 / V 731 / VR 731 Engine............SAE #1-1/2; flywheel housing with +quill shaft & torsional damper Vehicle..............................Provision for rear mount if required by engine manufacturer Designed for use with diesel engines up to 275 nhp (205 kW). Three forward ranges and one reverse. This transmission model is designed specifically for transit bus applications. So your bus may work with it. If it was built with a v730 becouse it my be detuned to a lower HP and have better cooling then people use on a retro fit with one. And when I turn up my HP it will be over the 275 HP. So what I heard from other with the v730 I will pass on one. That is the only thing I dont like with the GMC is the V drive no choice of other trans If it was a T drive I would look into a newer Auto trans and motor. But Im stuck with what GMC gave me Oh well. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the post, Brian. There is nothing that I haven't heard in the information-- but it has to be looked at in perspective. First of all, the overheating problem is in the cooling system shared with the engine (as I believe you realize). This would be a retrofit problem you might encounter putting one in your 4905-- you need a bigger radiator to deal with the additional heat from the auto tranny. The rating of 275HP is another concern, but several of us run 350 HP 6V92TA's with no problem, so I would not let that worry me. The last problem is gearing-- even though the V730 has an overdrive ratio of .875 that is less than the overdrive ratio of the factory 4-speed. So (like Don says), if you want to keep your rpms down for better fuel milage after installing a V730, then you need to replace the differential gears. I don't know what is available for your bus, but for my RTS the highest ratio I can get is 4:10, which is what I have. So if you want to deal with modifying your bus to accomodate a V730, it can be done, but I still haven't heard why V730's are not good for highway use. I think the true story is that in transit applications (constant stop and go), they may require rebuilding more often due to the wear and tear. Mine works fine, in town and on the freeway! --Geoff | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
ANYONE who can land on an aircraft carrier has my complete, profound respect. I can't even land my posterior on the couch if the instructions are on the cushion. When I bought my Crown Super Coach ex-schoolie about 3 years ago, both knees were just fine. Now my right one needs a rebuild job. Sosss far my left knee remains OK, soossss I can shift away with my cool, neat, jazzy RTO-910 close ratio 10-speed Roadranger. BUT....if my left knee goes south like my right one, then I just do not know what I am going to do. Age does march on. The point being that situations/conditions change as we age. What works today may not work tomorrow. How long do you want to keep your coach? All of the presented arguments/points of view have valid concerns behind them. The final decision is yours. Roandrangers forever....for now. | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Henry: It seems you need to learn to float-shift. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
From my files, a few reposts , from various sources: Allison Transmission (Showing type & viscosity oil to use for expected mininum temperatures) V 730/731 Preventive Maintenance (PM1815EN) Publication Date: 3/01/90 $18.00 http://www.allisontransmission.com/product/series/v730_listings.jsp?PublicationType=PM Free download V 730 Series Operator's Manual (OM1493EN) Publication Date: 8/15/75 $10.50 http://www.allisontransmission.com/publications/pubs/OM1493EN.jsp Free download V(R) 731(RH) Electronic Controls Operator's Manual (OM1884EN) $4.50 http://www.allisontransmission.com/publications/pubs/OM1884EN.jsp Free download For the VS1 & 2 series check with http://www.williamsdistribution.com/vhvs.htm Spicer Transmissions Could not find anything for our V drive Spicers except what the GMC Coach Maintance Manual recommends. However here is a site that discusses gear lubes in general with emphasis on the older IHC transmissions. It explains the "why" of using a lighter oil in the tranny than in the differential. http://www.oldihc.org/Faq/proper_transmission_lubrication_.htm Detroit Diesel Service Bulletins http://www.detroitdiesel.com/public/sibs/sibnav.asp Free download Oil & Coolant Requirements http://www.detroitdiesel.con/public/svc/lofindex.asp Free downloads (Note: This URL seems to shut down on the weekend) V730 Hydraulic Control - Mechanic's Tips http://www.allisontransmission.com/publications/pubs/MT1494EN.jsp (Click the "Here" link to download the book in PDF format - approx. 390k, 41 pages, requires Adobe Acrobat Reader, free at www.adobe.com) V731 Electronic Control - Mechanic's Tips http://www.allisontransmission.com/publications/pubs/MT1885EN.jsp Lots of other stuff available the old fashioned way, ie mailing them $$. THey have a V730 troubleshooting video. Hmmmm... Anyway, for more, see: http://www.allisontransmission.com/publications/browse.jsp?BrowseBy=Series (you may have to cut and paste that link into your browser) I wish to submit a detailed account of the installation of a V730 automatic transmission in a 1975 GMC 4905 bus. This first installment will cover the installation only and I will follow up in future with the hook up and adjustment and results and test drive ( that may take a while ). Perhaps Ed Carrol could enter this into the web site as I still do not know how to access the Yahoo site . ( need some help with that one ) V730 Installation in 4905 By Adrian Van Loenen. When I purchased my 4905 it had a Spicer manual transmission installed and a V730 came in one of the cargo bays which I purchased extra. I decided to replace the Spicer with the V730 for the following reasons: 1. The clutch was worn badly including the friction plates, the drive plates and the friction plate carrier that mounts on the Spicer shaft. 2. The shift linkages where all badly worn. 3. I found the bus too difficult to shift and clutch and knew that although I could likely master the shift points other drivers like my wife would not. Thus long trips could not be shared by other drivers. To begin you will require the following hardware: 1. The V730 flywheel which is much heavier than the clutch complete and also has the ring gear for the starter. 2. The V 730 flywheel mounting bolts ( 6 pcs ) 3 The V 730 bell housing. More on this later. 4 The V 730 oil cooler. 5 The rear axle drive shaft .used in the V730 installation is I believe shorter than the Spicer. 6 A cable shift and drivers shift lever or a Air over electric shifter such as a Stone Bennett. 7. The V730 drive shaft and the dampening coupling which drives it and is mounted to the flywheel. There are other items that will be required to hook up the V730 which have to do with electrical and I will address these items later. For now I wish to stick to the mechanical installation while it is still fresh in my memory . ( just completed the installation 4 days ago ) Item #1 Flywheel. This piece weighs I estimate about 200 lb. , is the same diameter as the ring gear of the clutch flywheel used in the Spicer application, is thicker than the entire clutch in the Spicer application. It is held to the crankshaft of the 8V71 ( found in the 4106 and 4905 ) engine by 6 bolts and 2 dowel pins. It is important to clean the mating surfaces of the flywheel and the crankshaft so that no high spots or debris will prevent solid mating of the two parts. Failing this could result in a loosening of the flywheel. ( this is the experienced advise of Luke at US Coach ). I found an easy way to install the flywheel was to use a 2" ( or as big as will fit ) pipe inside the hole in the end of the crankshaft with the flywheel on the pipe and then lift the pipe ( with jack ) so that the flywheel will slide into the bell housing and gently on the crankshaft. Align the dowels and install the bolts. Although the manual calls for " international compound " to be installed on the bolts which is a lubricant I decided to clean the bolts and bolt holes with carburetor cleaner for degreasing and compressed air. I then installed Loctite # 680 to the bolt threads so that they could not come loose. I torque them to the required torque ( 60 ft/lbs ). Item # 2 The 6 bolts used to install the flywheel are 9/16" fine thread and 4.835" long. They are high grade and should be original GM equipment. Do not use inferior bolts. Item # 3 The V730 bell housing differs from the Spicer bell housing in these ways: 1. There is an "Ear" as Luke calls it on the Spicer which faces the back of the bus and this returns oil to the bell housing. The Spicer bell housing is casted to accept this oil passage and has an opening to allow the oil to flow which lines up with the "ear" on the Spicer. The V730 Bell housing has this casting blanked out and only a threaded hole for the oil return line fitting is tapped into this solid blanked out "ear". Luke says that they have welded a thick plate it this place on the Spicer Bell housing to accommodate the V730 oil return line. 2. The V730 bell housing has a ring which is about 2 1/2" deep and about 1" thick that is mounted on the bell housing opening where the transmission fits. This is held on to the bell housing by several long allen bolts which tread into the face of the opening through holes in the ring. They are spaced about 2 to3" apart and circle the entire ring. If you get the ring you can mount it to your Spicer bell housing but make sure that you have the threaded bolt holes first in the face where the Spicer fits. Then you will need to modify your opening where the " ear " fits because the V730 does not have this "ear". Item # 4. The V730 oil cooler is cooled by the engine coolant and there is a mounting bracket of a solid steel 1/4" plate mounted to the right side of the V730 ( when viewed from the back looking forward ) to which the cooler is mounted. The cooler has 2 oil lines going to it and 2 coolant lines. The Allison V730 manual says that this is supplied by the coach manufacturer. Mine came with and was mounted to the V730. Item #5 The drive shaft: I have not yet attempted to install the Spicer drive shaft and suspect that it will have to be shortened. I will describe my drive shaft hook up in a future post. Item #6 The V730 is shifted into 1,2,D,N,R ( not necessarily in that order ) by a small shaft on the right side of the Tranny just ahead of the cooler mounting place and just above the oil pan. You will recognize this shaft because it is about 1/2" diameter and has a flat milled on its end on each side ( 180 Degrees apart ) just below the tread. The tread is for the nut which holds a small lever onto the shaft which is moved in a circular motion to shift the V730. There is a very distinctive detent at each shift point so adjustment of the lever travel for accurate shifts should be easy. The lever can be shifted with either a long cable which goes to the drivers shift lever or by a Stone Bennett air over electric shifter. I was able to acquire a Stone Bennett shifter from Nimco Bus in New Jersey. They are a large metal recycle and have a bus wrecker division. Talk to Nick Liberti at 1-800-526-8055 or 973-589-9265 ( we Canadians don't get the 1- 800 service ). I paid $125.00 for it and while in the area I stopped by and picked it up. Nick was very helpful and showed me around the place. Quite something to see all those Detroit Diesels and trannys and bus parts on all the shelves. The stone bennett requires 5 or 6 wires to run from the drivers switch to the shifter. The switch is pushed up for up shifts and down for down shifts. ( The switch will always return to the center position ) A light will indicate which gear you are in . This comes with the shifter. You need to supply the wire. I will run mine in one of the holes where the Spicer shift rods was. There are 2 electrically activated solenoids which send air to the shifter that is mounted on the bottom of the V730 using 3 oil pan bolts. These bolts have a distinctive spacing so the shifter cannot be mounted incorrectly. The shifter has the linkage and lever to shift the V730. I like the idea of no long cable to require lubrication and a simple push of a button to shift the tranny. I will explain the hook up and give more details in a future post. Item # 7 The torsional dampening coupling is installed to the flywheel buy 8 short high grade bolts. This coupling faces the V730 and the drive shaft ( that drives the V730 ) fits into it by a spline. You require the coupling , bolts and the shaft. A couple of important points about installing the V730. 1. There are 2 mounting bolts to the bell housing which are not accessible after the V730 is in place. These are in the bottom of the bell housing and you need to use a threaded rod type bolt at these locations. Thread them into either the V730 or the bell housing BEFORE you install the V730 to the bell housing. You cannot get them in later. The bolts around the bell housing are varied in length so check that the lengths are correct. The bolts should protrude 1" beyond the V730 to give adequate tread into the Bell housing. 2. The V730 drive shaft fits into a torsion spring coupling which is bolted to the flywheel. These bolts are high grade and should be purchased from GM. The drive shaft has a spline on both ends and both of these splines are the same. ( see item #7 ) 3. The firewall bulkhead where the Spicer passes through will have to be enlarged to fit the larger V730. Also you will need to take a torch and cut off a section of the longitudinal steel bulkhead where the drive shaft goes through. The section you must cut out is the rearmost part of this plate from the drive shaft hole to the firewall bulkhead. I cut along the heavy engine frame at the bottom of this plate to the aluminum firewall and followed the curve at the top of the hole where the drive shaft fits through and cut toward the top of the plate toward the rear. Then the whole rearmost piece of the plate comes out. You will also remove the small angle which connect this portion of this steel plate to the firewall bulkhead. You now need to take a saw and cut the firewall bulkhead 1 1/2 " to the left of the hole where the tranny fits. To explain this better you will be cutting away that section of the aluminum where the angle was already removed. This allows the V730 to fit on the left side as it enters the firewall bulkhead hole. Also you need to remove the aluminum small "U" channel that goes under the spicer hole in the firewall bulkhead. I cut the rivets with hammer and chisel. Now cut the aluminum where this angle was so that only 1" remains at the bottom. That 1" will be the "T" shaped aluminum bar that goes to the right side of the bus and the small strip with rivets of the aluminum bulkhead material that was under the tranny. This piece only holds the side of the bus skin so don't be scared as it is not structural. The lines to cut this strip from left to right are: Left to the engine cradle mount and right follow the curve along the right side and down to the 1" "T" bar. The left side is critical , there is lots of room on the right. Finally cut a 1" 45 degree angle off of the engine cradle mount on the top right corner of the right engine mount. Unfortunately this means you will loose the bolt in that top right corner ( take it out first before cutting ). On close examination the mount looks plenty strong enough to remove this corner. You might try mounting the engine tranny on the frame first and see if it is necessary. I did that and there was interference so I had to take the corner off. By the way the V730 is bolted to the engine which is on the engine frame first and then the whole works goes into place in the bus. Finally you should reinforce the metal plate which you torched out with a steel hanger which will run from the air bag beam at top to the forward facing side of the engine cradle mount to the left of your cut out. I used 1/4" x 3" plate and it strenghens the engine hanger mount by adding support from the air bag beam. -Hi Guys: Just thought I would jump in here with what hopefully will be useful info. In my experience the V-730 is a heck of a trans. When we were operating buses in a combination of stop & go, along with highway speeds, our VS-2's were O.K. As the supply of first class (used) VS-2's dried up, we converted our buses to V-730's. We kept them serviced & leak-proof and they gave us wonderful service and we were running 200 to 300 miles per day per bus. As with anything else, DA BOOK is helpful in understanding the machine and how to maintain it!!! Some things we learned about the V-730: 1. If operated with an air throttle, we split the air feed line to the air throttle at the engine bulkhead so that there was about the same amount of air line going to the throttle as to the modulator. We never had a passenger or driver complaint about rough shifting. 2. For those that experience sudden problems with loss of shifting ability or other subtle changes in trans. operation, here is the "secret of the year" and I can only imagine how many transmission have been changed, rebuilt etc. because of the above symptoms!!! And believe me this comes from a graduate of the "School of Hard Knocks". Now, DON'T ATEMPT TO DO THIS UNLESS YOU CAN SAFELY WORK UNDER YOUR COACH!!!! At the back of the V-730, below the drive shaft, above and (left of center) above the pan is a 1/8" pipe plug. With a 7/16" wrench take it out. Inside you will find a cone-shaped screen. With a small pick, take it out. You will probably find that it has little grungies in it. Clean it out & reinstall it & see if your trans. operates better!!! Now for your MCI coach owner friends, their task is a bit more difficult. They have to drain the oil, drop the pan and they will find the same type of small screen on the valve body. So folks if you can do this "PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE" check your self, go for it and if not have your "TRUSTED" repair shop do it for you. Could save you a fortune "ON THE ROAD"!!! Or if you have a problem out in EAST GUMSHOE NOWHERE!!! & that's where we usually have problems, not in the driveway, have the rescue shop check that screen, before you wind up buying a new transmission, which you may not have needed in the first place. Some of this copied info might be usefull , FAST FRED | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Beautiful article, well written. I think we could use more like that. | ||
| paso1 Rating: N/A |
Awesome post Fast Fred . Here I thought you were brillant with your wealth of knowlwdge behind you and all your great posts. But you have a "file " behind you Fantastic post Fred just the kind of info I was looking for thank you. | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
OR......don't get an automatic ...& don't have all those worrys...remember..."IF YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO SHIFT,YOU NEED TO STAY HOME" | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Well, that might be so, but there is another crowd that maintains some simple people just cannot get the hang of using the more complex machinery in an automatic transmission. So I don't know, is it laziness of automatic crowd, or incompetence of the shifter boys, I bet someone will tell us. | ||
| Phil Dumpster Rating: N/A |
Allison transmission no longer has those available for download. They will sell them to you on CDROM or printed, though. | ||
| Bob Cox
Rating: N/A |
What the heck: Bus converters always need something to do !! But as we age the need becomes less, so I'm replaceing the 8v71 with a 8v92 takeing out the roadranger ten and installing HT740 Allison the out come is to be seen, maybe the wife can even drive yea yea 38k of Eagle to stop ??? |