| Author | Message | ||
| Jim in California Rating: N/A |
OK, let's assume you have a mid-engine Crown or very similar with a small-cam Cummins; Crown with a 262 or Gillig with a 335. I have a line on one of each, the Gillig in better shape, both 40ft "true tandem duallies" with a lockup airshift to convert to eight wheel drive on the fly. Ohhhh yeah  . I'm assuming the motor mounts would be similar and I know both are compatible with a Road Ranger or other standard tranny (and as tandems, both seem to have used the same axle parts). What the hell other motor fits down there? Is there an upgrade path to the big-cam Cummins, such as the 400? I assume the 671V will also work but would it have to be a special "flopped over variant" versus the same basic thing found mounted transverse in old GMC buses? Not that I'd want a DD 2-stroke... A related question: those various 60-ft articulated transit buses use an under-floor mid-engine forward of the "middle" axle. Some are quite modern; I'd assume that's a possible donor powerplant; anybody know anything about those? Jim | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
jim in ca. ....what do you think you get when you have 8 wheel drive ?? I drove over a million miles in a big truck & had it in 8-wheel drive twice...for 5 minutes each..... | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
I was told that some of the older 250 cummins used in the crowns have some special parts that are only bus and are very hard to find . And I dont beleave the newer motors will bolt to the parts to make them laydown. The new mid engine motors sould fit they have a laydown set up. but the cost would be more then the bus would be worth . If it was me if the bus your looking for is not made with the style of powerplant be it laydown of V drive I would stay a way from it. In the long run you will have very few motors or trans to repower to pick from. Even with my 4905 with the V drive in 10 years when most of the spair transits are crushed and very few have over the raod gearing or 4 speeds I will have to pay out the ass the find spair parts. When it gets to much I will repower it to a T drive and have a 43 foot 4905. Im in too deep now to change buses but with what I know now I would only buy a newer MCI the others you pay too much for the name. I like the Eagles but I would not buy a bus without air ride. Over here they can give the older crowns away one here going to be crushed up for scrap. And the tandom axles is nothing but just more moving parts and a two axle bus will have less chance of getting stuck A bus with a non powered tag will get stuck easy if you cant dump the air from the tag axle. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Jim in California Rating: N/A |
Hmmmm. The idea of 8WD to deal with camping trips and such has appeal. Plus these Crowns/Gilligs with the mid-engine have a stronger trailer mount point at the rear than most of the rear-engine critters where the hitch has to be slung off the engine mount. <scratches> | ||
| Gus Haag (Mrbus)
Rating: N/A |
Jim, There is no eight wheel drive on standard Timkin/Eaton rear ends. When you lock the power divider, you get one set of wheels on each axel that will drive. And should you forget that it is locked in, and drive it on hard surfaces,you will soon be purchasing new rear ends. About the only rear ends that truely have a locking capability are the older Macks. FWIW, Gus Haag | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
The crowns I saw have almost nothing for a rear trailer hitch to bolt too but a big trunk looking thing back there. Also the spring set up on the crown/gilligs 3 axle buses dont have the travel to handle any thing more then a drive way get them in some big pot holes and a twist you will get stuck even with it locked in . Wait to you have the wheels spinning and you lock it in and hear all the parts bust. But Im sure there fine for you out there that want a school bus motor home. The price is right for them most cost nothing .The ones here went for free . About 10 of them now all in sitting in the scrap yard down the block from me. Too bad the crown looked in good cond. And all the Gilligs scraped here have rear eng. Cats or Cummings with Autos. All I see any way is 4 extra tires $$$ and no advantage over a 2 axle bus . Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
Hey Jim in California...try www.crownbus.com for a speciality board that deals just about only in the very best coach made in the whole known galactic universe or even more....the Crown Super Coach. He he he. But then I own one, VIN 37317, a 1974 Crown Super Coach ex-schoolie 40-foot 3-axle 10-wheeler now stripped shell someday (maybe) becoming that ultimate driver's motorhome. Big Cam 2 Cummins mill. 10-speed Roadranger tranny. 85+ mph. 10+ mpg at 60 mph. Roars up hills very slowly since right now it is slow. And...it does have that interaxle locking differential thing. However...if you ever buy one (a Crown) DO NOT flip that air switch to lock up the tandems at ANY SPEED!!! You have to be sitting dead still, or just barely rolling forward. However, once locked up, a Crown 10-wheeler becomes... ...basically a logging truck and can goes anywhere. I was burning donuts in 10" of icy snow here in SW Oregon just the other day. All the cars were stuck but me. Fun, but stupid. Now I have good news and I have bad news. The bad news first. I hate to says this but in my opinion there may be better choices in a coach for converting into a motorhome. The Crown was designed to haul school kids and does NOT have the huge underfloor storage bins. Oh, it has usually one and sometimes two and sometimes a big trunk way in the back, but the bus is too low to the ground to have much storage space underneath. The mill is located on its left side under the floor admidships. Also, some parts on the Crown are kinda getting hard (read that impossible!) to find, such as curved windshield glass. A $1000 bucks per side, if you can find good used ones. New not available. And yeah, like already mentioned, .... ...some of the Detroit pancake parts are special only to Crown, but are available in wrecking yards in California. The Cummins pancake is easier to find parts for, has more interchangability and can be up powered more... ...easy, like from a 250 which I have now all the way up to an easy 475 using facoty parts and settings. Swapping a mill in a Crown is very difficult, but doable. Depends upon your definition of a hard engine swap. More bad news... ...is that Crowns are usually just a southern California thing. Being retired from school service in groves and are available at auction very cheap, especially if you live out of state. Locals may have a harder time. Smog laws. The god news is that the Crown is very well built, and if one can work thru some engineering concerns, would make a great coach conversion. I would try to find one with a Big Cam Cummins (post 1972 or soos) with flat windshield glass... ...and with the Roadranger 10-speed. The later (post '76) Crowns have reinforced bodies and roofs. Very well built indeed. The models with rear trunks can have heavy duty hitches installed, but you have to work at it. Thanks, and CROWNS FOREVER!! | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
Rating: N/A |
*whoops, deleting post* | ||
| Ron Rutledge
Rating: N/A |
Hello Their...Henry stated it Right!...Too...I have a Crown Motor Home(Washington Title)...Crown super coach 1981...245.796 miles on it...a Local school bus from the Seattle Aare...671 went bad...repower to Big Cam (was a Pancake engine) it more work then you have done playing with your toys...Have owned Trucks and have worked on them all...Buy one with the power...I think you should think about whichs, block and tackel's to go camping with...A mid-engine stock (671-743)Crown and Gilles has 11-12 road clearnce...I have 14-15...Their are so meny??????...that you are going to come across...I it takes lots on time and money...It's all what the BUS OWNER want's...it's his Bus and ? | ||
| Jim in California Rating: N/A |
Well...how good/bad an engine is the 262 and 335 Cummins small cam turbo motors? I ask mainly regarding reliability, not power...I'm thinking the 262 would do me if a wee bit light and the 335 should be fine. Rebuild parts for the small cam upright motors are still available. Will rebuild parts for those work on the laydowns? Or put another way: are the small cam motors in the Crowns/Gilligs inline motors flopped over, or "pancakes" in the true VW/Subaru sense needing totally different rebuild parts than the standard versions? If the small cam laydown motor can use most of the same parts as the uprights, then I can get everything needed now (injectors, gaskets, etc., even a piston/sleeve/ring set if possible) while the stuff is still available then do a rebuild down the road. | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
rebuild parts are still available for the small cam engines... main difference is the oil pan and pickup tube... | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Jim - The "pancake" motors used in the Crown/Gillig skoolies are in-line six cylinders laid over on their sides. They're not true pancakes in the sense of the VW/Porsche/Subaru/Corvair style. Altho Derek deleted his post (how come, Derek??), the 8V92TA mounted in the Prevost H5-60 articulateds is not set-up in a pancake configuration. It sits upright in a compartment on the driver's side of the front coach section. There are some MAN articulateds out there using MAN pancake in-line sixes. The MAN's a good engine, but rare here in the States, so part availability is a challenge. Most of the other articulateds currently being built are pushers or ETBs. And w/o any frame rails in the rear behind the back axle in a mid-ship Crown/Gillig, you're back to a similar situation to a GM coach when it comes to a "banzai" trailier hitch. . . FWIW, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Jim in California Rating: N/A |
You mean the Gillig frame rails don't go very far back either? Poop.  Oh well. Dang. <scratcheshead> What about the hitch capabilities of the 35ft Bluebird/Wanderlodge "pullers" with the front 3208Ts? I ask because some of the factory mid-80s variants are going for fairly reasonable prices these days, $35k - $50k and for what you're getting...stuff like: http://www.birdconnection.com/505.html http://www.birdconnection.com/468.html http://www.birdconnection.com/510.html ...seem reasonable. Thoughts overall, and esp. re: towing (assuming we're talking a turbo 250 or 300 variant 3208 and not the non-turbo 210)? | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
RJ..that is not entirely the case with the frame going to just behind the drivers. Mine goes beyond the fuel tank,located just behind the drivers and a bit further...to the trunk. Then they (the frame members)are connected and and have welded pipe supports that go angled to steel channel which goes under the trunk with angle cross supports. I would not hesitate to use these members, structually, to weld on a hitch for a toad.Though I would consider carefully how to go about it. That trunk is VERY stable. FWIW.... RCB '64 Crown Supercoach (HWC) | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
Rating: N/A |
RJ Long; I actually responded in a somewhat similer fashion to yours, regarding the H5-60, however upon rereading the question I thought he was inquiring abount transit atrics, instead of the highway artic that is the H5-60. | ||
| Bill k. Rating: N/A |
Gus is right on the eaton- only two wheels driving with the power divider locked in, and like he said don't for get to unlock, I just got done putting new spiders in my dump truck, not a fun or cheap job. | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
Hello Jim again. The designation of the older Cummins pancake mills does get a little confusing. The older 743 Cummins 6 cylinder was an excellent, older (1950's) mill still found in service. This mill was rated at 180, 200 or 220 hp without a turbo and as a 250 or 262 as a turboed version. And...the 743 could be had all the way to a 335 hp. No intercooler. Thousands were used set at 335 hp in heavy truck service. At that power rating, the head gaskets would slowly seep, especially the first head next to the clutch. This was because the 743, while a good mill, did not have enough head bolts to seal the head gasket. This seepage only seemed to be a problem in heavy truck service and at the highter power levels. The small cam/big cam 855 inch Cummins had more head bolts and a half inch larger bore, plus updated injection and stuff. The big cam version had a one half inch larger cam lobe diameters. This was to improve the physical leverage on the injectors sooss more pressure and fuel could be employeed. The Small Cam 855 was rated at 250 hp without a turbo and at 250, 275, 290, 300 and 335 with a turbo. No intercooler. Cummins also made some small cam 400 hp models with intercooler. The Big Cam Cummins 855 came in basiclly 4 different models (improvements) called the Big Cam One thru Four. Big Cam ratings varied from 250 with no turbo, which is what I have, all the way up to a 475 hp which used two turbos with intercoooler. The differences in the power ratings dealt with timing, injection pressure and rate, injection pump settings, boost levels and intercooler capacity/efficiency. Wow...I hope I have it right. Anyway, the Cummins is a fine mill and yes, parts are still available for the 855 models with less being available for the older 743. Pancake parts, I am ... ..told, will enterchange on the 855 models. I do not know if they will swap out onto the older 743. Some help here please. Been a long time. Anyway, like I said before, if one can work thru the engineering restraints/... ...limitations, the Crown Super Coach can and will make a superb motorcoach conversion. One just has to work at it a little. Anyway, I hope this helps and does not confuse. CROWNS FOREVER!! | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Henry, that post helped a LOT. What you're suggesting is that the Crown 262 turbo motor 743 is a good enough engine and will do the job AND reliability is decent, but parts availability is getting "iffy" due to the pancake nature. Well...that's...a bit of a problem. I plan on keeping one rig for 20 years. If parts are "starting to become an issue" NOW...well that ain't good. Right here in the 4-sale area, somebody has a '78 Crown tandem with a 671Turbo. THAT doesn't sound like a bad idea at all, esp. since the only thing turning a 671 block into a laydown is an alternate oil pan and pickup which is hard to find but of course there's one on that bus now now. So down the road, I can find any 671, turbo or not, have it rebuilt to turbo spec if I need, swap the "laydown parts" and go. Trannys are pretty normal on these buses...ditto rear ends, air system, etc. And I suspect a 671T will get the job done otherwise, and that parts will be available more or less forever. (Unfortunately the guy with the silver Crown in the 4-sale area doesn't answer EMail...) |