| Author |
Message |
Bob (Bobb)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 7:34 pm: | |
I just put a hairline crack in one of my storage batteries. Of course the crack had to be at the bottom of one of the sides, and all the acid leaked out. Has anyone successfully fixed one of these?
I was thinking of using a flat blade tip on a soldering iron to "seal" the crack, then reenforcing it with two part epoxy. The battery is brand new, and I don't want to have to toss it..
Any help would be appreciated.
Bob |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 7:48 pm: | |
As an "open question" was the battery charged or discharged?
Were you able to "catch" the leaked acid ( actually electrolyte, which isn't just acid, depending on several factors)
If discharged, I would guess that you would have to be careful just what you put back in the batt as the stoichiometry will be all messed up.
This is a new topic that I don't recall ever surfacing on the BBs.
Hope it works out for you, but many will be learning!
Interesting! |
Bob (Bobb)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:00 pm: | |
The battery is brand new, and charged. Even with one of the 3 cells in the battery empty, it still reads full voltage across the terminals.
I was able to contain the electrolyte, but it became contaminated. I have purchased replacement electrolyte, so hopefully that will work.
Not a lot of info available via the usual routes - google, etc. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:22 pm: | |
Brand new? No guarantee?
Some people would tell 'em it was leaking.. |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:29 pm: | |
I'd silacone it.... it has to cure for 24 hours.....at 70 degrees or better |
Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:29 pm: | |
If its polypropylene, pvc, or abs it can be welded with a plastic welder as I have welding rods for those 3. Polyethylene probably can be welded but I don't have any rods for it and can't find any. Pvc could also be glued. I would try the weld if possible because it is more permanent.
If you don't know anyone with a welder try an auto body shop. They have them to weld bumper covers, etc. Also try Autozone, napa or any major auto parts store for battery case mender, I'm sure I've seen it but never used it.
HTH Ed |
frank-id
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:36 pm: | |
A couple years ago, I tossed an 8D onto a pallet that had a few nails sticking up. The battery was cracked and with a 3/16 hole. Electrolite partly saved. Made a new bottom for battery from some formica. Using a been can opener, the broken area was heavily scratched. Mixed up some 2 part epoxy, heavy application around hole area, with a few lumps strategically all over bottom. Next day filled cell with electrolite and changed slowly. The repair lasted for about 4 years. Battery voltage was low, and battery froze, broke case near bottom but repair was not broken. I used the slow curing epoxy real thick, and used all product in one application. |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:46 pm: | |
Bob - how did you crack it?
Niles |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:50 pm: | |
I did this w/a Trojan abt. 4 yrs. ago and it worked. Did exactly what u proposed. Hot knife to seal and re-inforced w/2 part. I used a product called Pig Putty, a two part heavy bodied epoxy made for high moisture exposure. After I sealed the case I roughed it for better adhesion of the Pig Putty, let it set 24 hrs. and re-filled it with new electrolyte. I don't think silicone would stick, since I have never found anything else it sticks to, especially if there is moisture involved.
The plastic welding would be nice, if u can find the right rod and someone that is good at doing it and brave enough to try it with something that has hydrogen trapped down in it if it is still "wet" inside. |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:48 pm: | |
Interesting problem.
As you probably know voltage across battery terminals means nothing about the condition of the battery except when it shows a short. It can be completely dead and still show full voltage. You need a battery load tester available many places for under $40 and a real handy tool for buses.
Once the case is resealed I would think that new electrolyte with the exact same specific gravity as the electrolyte that leaked out would work but not sure of that.
Let us know how it works. |
airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:04 pm: | |
Take and go to a automotive store. Purchase some two part JB WELD. Mix per directions apply and let dry sand shape as needed. Refill with battery acid use for next 5-6 or longer years. |
Bob (Bobb)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:12 pm: | |
How did I crack it? well I'm almost to embarassed to say.. but.. was unloading the batteries in -20 weather, there was snow in the back of the pu, and slid one battery into the other.. hit the broken battery with the corner of the sliding battery. They weigh in at 127lbs each, so there was some mass behind the slide.
Was being very careful, but not careful enough I guess for -20 and its effects on the plastic case.... |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:19 pm: | |
Bob - then I'd just tell the battery supplier the battery cracked when it slid into the other in back of the p-up - ask them why they sold you a battery that would crack upon such an impact in your climate (evidently the temp had something to do with making the case brittle) - I don't think it should have busted just sliding around - and I believe they will make an adjustment/replacement - why? - cause they'll just pass it on to the Mfg. - and who would want to tick off a bus guy who is gonna buy a lot a batts in his lifetime - Niles |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:31 pm: | |
Tires carry road hazard guarantees. If you run over a curb and
ruin the sidewall, they'll replace it (after prorating it). Batteries
also have some guarantee. It's new. Take it back and tell them
it's cracked and leaking. You'll be spending more for glue that
may or may not work in your climate and on that plastic, than
whatever they prorate the thing for... |
Bob (Bobb)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:41 pm: | |
Good advice if I wasn't 300 miles from the supplier, who is the manufactuer.
It was my mistake, and if it can't be fixed, I will buy a new one.
I have also contacted the mfgr to see what advice they might have to offer. |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:07 pm: | |
Bob, I would stay away from silicone seal. It's the wrong product for your job and once you get it on a surface, it can screw up any other attempts to repair the battery.
New acid should be fine to get the battery working again. If you monitor the battery with a hydrometer, you will probably be able to do small adjustments to the acid by choosing water or a little more acid when you top up the batteries.
Work carefully; it will be difficult to keep acid off of you while you're doing the repair. It might be a help to dissolve some bicarbonate of soda in a bucket of water before you start. Then, you can just rinse off anything that gets contaminated.
I did a repair like you're considering, but I put a piece of inner tube over the repair on the bottom and strapped it around the side. The idea was that I could check to see if there was any liquid in the inner tube before doing anything else with the battery. There never was.
Good luck with your battery.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:28 pm: | |
Bob
I have taken a cracked battery back to a battery rebuilder and they just undo the top of the case and put it into another case. They have lots of cases from scrap batteries around as they open then to reclaim the lead. Might be worth a try if you can find a rebuilder in your area. Bill |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:47 pm: | |
It should not crack unless dropped. Sliding on ice is not enough force. Would it have broken your arm if it hit you? The manuffacturer owes you a new battery for a defective case. Plastics vary in quality from batch to batch. Sounds like your case was from a poorly crosslinked batch of plastic. |
t gojenola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 12:08 am: | |
Forget getting it fixed! Take Frank(or anyone else big enough to toss an 8-d) with you to where you got it. Practic menacing faces on the way. Come home with a free replacement. Simple - and nothing to clean up afterwards.
tg |
Glenn MC-9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 6:18 am: | |
Hi Bob,
If you don't have access to a battery rebuilder in your area, go to NAPA.
Buy some plastic "JB Weld". Arrange the battery in a way that it won't be seeping any electrolyte and repair it.
Make sure the area is very clean and dry before repair. Then make a "V" in the crack and fill it with "JB Weld". Let it set in a warm area for several hours before you refill it.
I've got a battery in a tractor that I've run that way for 2 years.
Glenn Vining |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 9:19 am: | |
"...As you probably know voltage across battery terminals means nothing about the condition of the battery except when it shows a short."
Uhhhm, actually... battery voltage can tell you just about everything concerning the condition of the battery, you merely have to be patient...
Bob please don't load test the battery, at least not until you repair the crack, fill the cell and charge the battery. You might just melt the plates together in the empty cell.
Since it is a new battery, I'd have to think this can be done, but please, not with silicone. Get yourself a plastic welder and repair it right.
JB weld will work fine, but plastic welding will essentially hold as good or better than a new case and especially in such a cold climate, JB weld will be more brittle than the plastic weld.
Plus, plastic welders are damn handy to repair things with, eventually it will pay for itself.
Brian |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 4:29 pm: | |
All things considered, best to scrap it out and get a new one. Sorry. All things considered. Good luck. |
Bob (Bobb)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 5:47 pm: | |
Found out a few things.. the case is made of polypropylene, to which few things stick. Including most epoxies, silicone and JB Weld..
This type of plastic is used in Auto and Truck trim, so was able to get some two part goo from a body shop, rush home and mend the crack.
First I used the hot knife, or in my case the plastic cutting tip on a soldering gun, with a little extra polypropylene I was able to cut out of a non structural part of the case, and melted the crack together. Looked pretty good at this point..
Then I cleaned the area with acetone, and roughed it up with scotchbrite, and cleaned again with acetone, and applied the two part polypropylene adhesive in copious amounts for structrual strength. (this is not just adhesive, but has some structural qualities as well)
Will add the electrolyte tomorrow, and see if it holds.. have a plastic bucket of a perfect size to put the battery in. Used it previously when the leak started, and it held the acid ok.
Will report back in 4-5 years if it holds.
Thanks for all the advice and ideas, and if I were a little closer to the supplier, I probably would have just replaced it or had them put it in a new case. But when you live in a rural area, with few resources available, you have to do what you can with what you have. |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:08 am: | |
Brian,
I repeat, terminal voltage means nothing. A dead battery will still show full voltage unless it is shorted.
I assumed that Bob or anyone else knows not to load test a dry battery. |
Bob (Bobb)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:44 am: | |
Actually gusc, Brian is right. Many solar systems use battery voltage as an indicator of battery health.
The battery I repaired was part of such a system, a 2 volt cell, that was part of a larger bank of batteries.
While I agree that for a quick indicator of unknown battery health, a load test is preferable, using resting voltage compared to voltage under load does provide a reliable indicator of battery health and discharge %. Obviously this test is valid on a battery that is known to be working, it does have some worth. Shorting any battery will show 0 volts, and a lot of sparks with a good one.
Further, I have plenty of experience that indicates that a dead battery will not always show full voltage. You cannot just apply this statement without some explanation. Not being anywhere near a powerpole, I live in a battery operated world.
Have a look at any solar site for such references. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 5:46 pm: | |
I believe that all a voltmeter will tell you is that there is voltage present. It will not tell you how much ampacity is available. Depending on the battery, the voltage could drop to near zero with a very light load applied. To really determine if a battery is capable of supporting a load you must either check each cell with a hydrometer or put a known load on it while monitoring the voltage. At least that is my opinion.
Richard |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 11:24 pm: | |
Bob,
I didn't know you were talking about a single cell.
Richard is correct. However, everything I have said applies to voltages taken on multi cell batteries not under load. A load introduces a completely different situation.
I know nothing about solar cell voltages and nothing I say applies to them.
By a shorted battery I mean an internal short of the plates, not a short across the terminals. Sorry if that was misleading.
Of course a shorted single cell will show 0. The reading across any short is 0. However, a shorted multi cell battery will usually show very close to full voltage minus the voltage/s of the shorted cell/s.
All dead batteries will not always show full voltage but in most cases I have seen in over 50 years of messing with all kinds of machines I have found this to be so.
I can assure you that the voltage reading across the terminals of a non shorted multi cell battery will tell you nothing about its condition. Even if it shows low voltage it could just be in need of charging and not necessarily be bad. Or it could show full voltage and be completely incapable of holding any useful charge. This is the nature of batteries. I think you can confirm this at any battery shop or garage. |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:55 am: | |
Terminal voltage, as you put it, will surely tell you the condition of the battery OVER TIME.
Which is why I said you need to be patient. True, a load tester will tell you a charged battery's condition quickly... still, a battery that has defects will exhibit those defects in short order with measurement, and over time, battery voltage will indeed expose a bad battery.
If I have to know what condition the battery is in right now...I use a load tester, but if I have the time, I use voltage measurements.
One added benefit, at least for me, is a more intimate knowledge of the health of a battery than with a load tester.
I have three new batteries and four used batts that I charge periodically and have been monitoring in this way at work for some time now.
Additionally, in my experience, I have never run across a battery that was completely dead yet showed "full voltage"... it just doesn't happen.
As my father, who died a couple of years back used to say, never assume Gus...
Which is to say, telling someone not to load test a battery with a dry cell, who already knows not to do that, is simply insurance.
Whereas... telling someone who told YOU they show good battery voltage on a batt with a dry cell, that they need to use a load tester, while assuming they know when to use it...is asking for a disaster. IMHO
Brian |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 11:09 am: | |
Brian, are you familiar with the new (to me) electronic type battery tester? I really do not know the theory of operation but I believe it measures the impedance of the battery. It is a digital readout of the voltage and my company used it to test literally thousands of batteries over a several year period of time. If it says a battery is bad, it is bad. I guarantee. It is not a resistance type unit so there is never any heat generated and you can use it to check 100 batteries, one after the other, with out disconnecting them or the unit overheating.
I bought it from NAPA and their model number is Balkamp 700-1111. I highly recommend it for every bus nut to have. It costs less than $100 and will pay for itself the first time it saves you from having to buy a battery.
Richard
P.S. Please note that any recommendation that I make is based on personal experience, unless otherwise noted in the post. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:42 pm: | |
I did a little further research and found out that the instrument is manufactured by TIF and is model 2500. Instruction manual is at:
http://www.amprobe.com/manuals/TIF2500.pdf
Richard |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 12:49 am: | |
Over time a defective battery will not perform as it should. It doesn't take a voltage test to figure this out. A load test will tell you if there is a good probablility it will perform over time. No point in finding out on the road that a battery is no good.
None of my posts recommend load testing a dry battery. It seemed to me that Bob understands batteries quite well and that there was no reason to think he would load test a dry battery! One can surely assume some basic knowledge by posters, otherwise no advice will be of much value. My Grandpa used to tell me that people are smarter than you think.
Most posters seem to know what they are doing and are basically looking for other experiences and ideas, a very good idea in itself.
I've gotten 12v readings on many, many batteries that were too weak to power starters or lights and would only take a surface charge. Presumably there are different definitions of "dead" battery.
My comments are based on more than 50 years of personal experience in maintaining autos, trucks, tractors and airplanes. Obviously all experiences are not alike. |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 3:04 pm: | |
Well Gus, while I feel fairly certain that you never meant to advocate load testing a battery with a dry cell... when I see someone post this...
"Even with one of the 3 cells in the battery empty, it still reads full voltage across the terminals."
And in reply you post this... "As you probably know voltage across battery terminals means nothing about the condition of the battery except when it shows a short. It can be completely dead and still show full voltage. You need a battery load tester..."
It SOUNDS an awful lot like you are advocating it!
Making an assumtion about the maechanical knowledge of anyone...based on 25 years of experience as a diesel mechanic, can be a dangerous thing to do, especially in regards to batteries.
Brian |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 3:28 pm: | |
As I said, I prefer to take voltage measurements... if time allows... I have found that it can take as little a few hours to get an understanding of a good battery's health and no more than 24 hours to determine how much life is left in a battery.
And while you can't get a dead battery to read 12v if it is truly dead, you can charge that battery and have it read 12v with no capability of carrying a load AND I can tell you that is probably the case with a voltmeter immediately.
Actually though, I'm going to look at Richard's immpedance tester, it sounds like just the ticket, non-invasive like voltage testing, and as fast or faster than a load tester.
Brian |
Vin (Billybonz)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 3:23 pm: | |
I know this is way late but....
EZ RED EZBK204P
Features:
Can be used on polypropylene.
Repair cracked battery cases.
Many other applications. (arts and crafts,window installation,etc)
16 - 10" sticks per pound.
Can be used just like regular hot glue sticks.
Just can across it while bummin around the Net.
Vin |