| Author | Message | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
OK, say you mount the gray tank inside the coach somewhere...underneath a raised platform for a dinette fr'instance. Your shower drain will be below the upper fill point of the gray tank. Not good. You'll need a 12v pump to drive it "uphill" a few inches. Here's my idea: In the section of pipe between the shower drain and the pump, somewhere in the last 6" of pipe before the pump, make sure you've got a strong section of plastic (PVC, whatever) tubing at least 2" long. Drill two small holes in the TOP of this tube, about 1" apart. Take two 1" long brass wood screws and run them into each of the two holes. Run a 12v power line to one of the screws and solder it on there; run another power line from the other screw similarly soldered off to the pump's 12v input, then ground the pump as normal. The moment water fills the pipe, it completes the circuit between the two screws. Pump comes on, drains the water, the moment the tube runs dry the pump stops  . Totally automatic operation using the water itself as a switch. You could drain the sink into the same line...make sure this "drain pump" has slightly more flow than the feed pump. Thoughts? | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
yep....you are nuts | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Ohhhkay...what's wrong here? | ||
| pickerell Rating: N/A |
I sense a short cycling problem, even if you could get the pump to turn on. As soon as the water level dropped below the top screw, the circuit is broken and the pump shuts off. Here's an idea... how about mounting your gray tank in the bay below the shower and sink. Then you could use gravity to drain the water into the tank. You might even be able to use gravity to draiin the tank when it gets full! | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Jim, Lots of resistance in that setup. I'd consider using the current through the screws to activate a relay. The resistance would drop the voltage increasing current to the motor and exposing it to overtemp operation. | ||
| dug Rating: N/A |
Ok, here's a couple of ideas: 1. How about a marine bilge pump? For about $30, you would have the pump and built in switch. 2. Get a roller lever switch from radio shack (around $3.00), and put some ping pongs in a pvc tube. when the water rises, it pushes the ping pongs up and activates the switch. Good luck! Dug 75 MC8 Arcadia, FL | ||
| david anderson (Davidanderson)
Rating: N/A |
Jim, Do you have to lift your water uphill with a pump? You would be much better served if you could engineer a way to do all this by gravity. Pumps and switches give you more areas of failure and there is nothing worse than a failure when you are on a trip with your family. A marine bilge pump would best serve your application, but I highly recommend a less costly and simple approach to your design. Good Luck David Anderson | ||
| gillig-dan Rating: N/A |
Marc, The voltage needed to drive the pump or relay through the resistance of the water could add a high intensity electron therapy effect to the shower. I don't know if that would be desirable. How about a circuit that would trip a time-delay relay (to stop short cylcing) by using a moisure detection circuit. I'll see if I can't post a simple circuit that works on low voltage to drive the relay/pump circuit. Gillig-Dan | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Right. The reason I'm thinking this is because one top contender for my conversion lacks a lot of undercarriage tankage room: http://mogsrus.com/crown.htm And for what I could do with such a thing: http://www.equalccw.com/goingpostal.gif Thing is, if you sling the gray underneath, it would be damned difficult to cradle it and insulate it fully so you could use the water-bed-heater trick to prevent freezing. Hence the benefits (in this case) of indoor tankage. Not that I've ruled out undercarriage gray... ---------- Other notes: while a bit underpowered, I'm told the small cam cummins @ 220 was very reliable and with this thing, I could hold my bike in the main coach body so I wouldn't need a trailer. This bus is parts-compatible with Crown schoolies and can take a 671/671T down the road, all I'd need would be the "sideways retrofit parts" (funky oilpan and it's longer pickup tube) from a junked Crown schoolie, allowing any standard 671 block to work with this bus. So with parts availability OK despite it being exactly as old as I am , and the ability to hold bikes *inside* plus 7'3" headroom(!), oh HECK yeah . ------------ Oh and you're right, bilge pumps ARE cheap: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeI d=10001&categoryId=304&langId=-1&subdeptNum=75&storeNum=11 | ||
| Randall Hays (Bulldogie)
Rating: N/A |
Jim, what about a very small waterproof box with the boat float inside, as the box filled up it would pump the water to the higher tank and turn off when it was empty. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
That's kinda what I'm thinking, yeah. Basically take the showerpan and put a 5" wide by 5" deep "recess" in it. That goes below the level of the floor in an oversize hole. Bilge pump goes down in that recess, oversize screen goes above it. Water gets in the recess, bilge pump on. | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Rating: N/A |
Jim, that's very similar to what Fast Fred did. Hope it's ok to quote: "...having the shower pan drain (which is a tiny bilge pump IN NOT UNDER the base pan)pump "shower waste " water to the sink. This allows really simple winterizing as a bit of antifreez is poured in the shower pan , the pump operated for 5 seconds and the antifreez gets to the sink , where it winterises the Senicruser J trap , as it flushes from the pump. Works for me,takes very little room,no waste of bay space , or need to heat a bay. >>Did you buy or make the shower pan with bildge pump? ...Purchased a plastic HD cheapo 32 X 32 shower base and installed a SS dog bowl with 5200 sealant into the center after some triming. A $10, Rule bilge pump is controlled by a wall switch (Marine waterpruf). ...Works for me, FAST FRED" By FAST FRED (4.245.191.38) on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/6410.html?1087985756 | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
I see. Yeah, that damned well WOULD work. Automatic operation or manual switch would hardly matter either way. Then run gravity drain, sink to gray. Kinda weird and NO COOKING WHILE SHOWERING!!! but other than that... | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Rating: N/A |
That's a nice looking vehicle. It should make a very comfortable conversion. It strikes me that this vehicle probably has as much under the floor room for a grey water tank as most typical motorhomes. FWIW I would get a shallow grey water tank and mount it beneath the floor. Headroom in your vehicle looks good enough that you shouldn't have to recess the shower. IMHO for health reasons, waste water should not be stored within living areas. A leak or cross contamination could have nasty results. A gravity system with the tank beneath the floor will help ensure that you can handle waste water any time regardless of availability of battery or shore power. Dave D (MC-8) Dave D (MC-8) | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Hmmm. One problem is that they've put in a jumbo aftermarket stainless diesel tank of 145gal. And the *engine* is mid-ships, along with the tranny, they're forward of the rear axle and a bit offset to the right. Yes, under the floor. BUT, looking at the side view pic: http://mogsrus.com/photos/cabin061.jpg ...it looks like there's very little going on behind the rear axle. If there's any undercarriage room for the big 100gal or so gray I'd want, that's where it'll be and that means maybe still needing a pump from the shower. Axle clearance will limit gravity feed some. Should be room forward of the rear axle for a small black tank in the 40gal range, *somewhere* (allowing straight grav feed). In the floorplans I did, I don't really care which side of the rig the shower, toilet and kitchen details are, only that they all fit into that general "lump" in that fashion. | ||
| Rick L. Rating: N/A |
There's a post somewhere of a Crown with a raised roof and a double floor with everything in the floor. I think I did a search for "Crown Supercoach" and found the web site. It was cool looking. Rick L. | ||
| Juan Navarro (Jnavarro)
Rating: N/A |
Jim, I think the idea of the two screws in the pipe would work -- but you would have to shower with salt water!! LOL. Seriously, My SeaRay cruiser's shower drains to a section of the bilge where a float switch turns on a 400gph, (small) bilge pump that transfers that water to the holding tank. works great, Juan in California PD4104-148 | ||
| Captain Ron
Rating: N/A |
I posted a question a while back on getting my vanity sink to drain since it will be on opposite side of my coach and have to drop down below my tunnel and back up to above gray tank. I could use some of these Ideas to resolve my problem. any specific plans you may have would be welcome. just email them to me. Thanks | ||
| CoryDane RTSII Rating: N/A |
You might put a separate light in the shower area on a switch and add the bilge pump to the switch. Most bilge pumps will run dry with no damage and the light assures you will turn it off when you are done. My thought cd | ||
| r jensen
Rating: N/A |
Think before you do this. Sometimes a clever solution to a problem draws you away from the real KISS solution that will keep you from having to deal with Merphy's Law. Think how many elements seen and unseen need to be in place to make this seemless. Find a way to harness gravity. I also wanted to keep space under my coach free and had the fresh water on the topside (which makes lots of sense), with one tank for gray and black. R Jensen | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Jim, I don't think the two screws would complete a 12v circuit through water. Maybe salt water, but not fresh. Try it outside like a lab experiment before you do a lot of work. Of course don't ever try this with 110 or 240 AC!! | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
You said 7'3" head room raise the shower up 8" or so and make a tank under the shower on the floor and put a pump in there and turn it one when the tank fills to pump it out or just have a seprate drain just for that tank like a 2" pipe run to your other drain valve. Just a Idea. Brian 4905 with lots of room under my bus but less head room  . Klamaht Falls Oregon | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
You know...I flat out didn't think about what that headroom means to shower placement. Swear to God. Sigh. Why stop there? A black/gray that's 3ft wide, 8ft long and a foot tall would hold...hell, I dunno, a LOT of water. Build up a platform on/around it, put the shower and throne right on top. 'Cept...if it leaks...stainless maybe? | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Stai...oh-ohhh....here we go again... Hey... why not just make a 7'x40'x 3" tank and mount it on the roof? How come no-one's suggested plastic wall tanks? No height? Got width! And.... it would add both insulation and a safety cushion (when they're full), not to mention warmth for the winter.... "What are those bumps in our living room wall?" "I dunno, what'd you eat for lunch?" (has everyone gone nutz?) | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A |
A lengthy discussion was had earlier about SS vs. plastic holding tanks. A very brief overview is that IF the CORRECT plastic is used PROPERLY, plastic will last forever. However plastic must be supported and has some other 'issues'. Stainless is easier to make self supporting but is usually more expensive and is succeptable to "stress corrosion cracking" in the corners which can be reduced by using 304L (316L if salt is present) and epoxy coating the corners. The 'L' is for lower carbon. A friend has a Custom Coach conversion MC5 (never a bus) with SS holding tanks that are still holding with no leaks or cracks after over 25 years. Bottom line - Use the material that fits your needs best and enjoy the madness of 'doing it your way' | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Rating: N/A |
Don't reinvent the wheel pick up any marine catalog and you will find multiple shower sumps with built in pump, float switch, and strainer to keep debris out of your tank http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/17137_f.jpg | ||
| Jack Gregg (Jackinkc)
Rating: N/A |
Surly there must be someplace under the floor where a tank could go. Leaks here are no big deal, unlike soaking the carpet with pickled gunk and tank deodorant. As for heating it – just throw in a handful of rock salt. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Rock salt. Sigh. Of course. Pardon me while I go beat my head against a wall for not thinking of that . | ||
| R.C.Bishop
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Great point, Jack...I'm with Jim...wouldn't have thought of that. Been away from the cold country too long, I guess.... Wonder how the Rock Salt affects septic tanks...mine for instance ....when I come home to dump? RCB | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
Jim...I think what will end up happening from time to time is that the gray water will not make enough of a continunity to allow the pump circuit to operate. Also it is possible that you will develope a situation where the pump will "short cycle" for a lack of a better description. This means the pump will jump from... ...on to off draining just enough water to kill the circuit..then the pipe refills and the pumps works quickly then shuts off again...over and over again. Which may not let the pump have enough pumping time to do its job of draining the grey shower water out of the shower and pumping it to the gray tank as intended. I face the same problem in the engineering of my Crown interior gray/black tanks only worse than yours with me having a sunken tub where the starting batteries are right now. Right now the plan is to use an electric marine bilge pump with a physical rotary timer switch mounted just outside the shower. Before one hops in the shower, one just... ...twists the timer to an appropriate length of time to take your shower. The bilge pump can run dry without damage for a given length of time. For a 3 minute shower, set the timer... ...for 4 minutes of bilge pump time. Not an automatic system, but then again, if one forgets to set the pump, the water quickly backs up in the sunken shower reminding them quickly... ....of that forgetfulness. Kinda a positive fail safe feedback system using minimum amount of bells and whistles. Having a max amount of bilge use time prevent burn outs. Good luck. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
With sub-zero temps and after having shoveled 4' of snow off our house roof in April... I can speak with some knowledge of wintering in the RV.. We tried it until things froze with every heater we had, going.. Thankfully, we did our experiment at home, parked in our own driveway. I tried rock salt. Rock salt isn't going to keep anything from freezing, but it may corrode and/or eat the hell out of your dump valve. You'll have real salty slush, more bad tasting than it was before you ate that cabbage dinner that was too salty to begin with. We didn't use the water facilities in the RV, but did use the toilet when needed. I went the cheap route and used cheap windshield washer anti-freeze to flush the toilet. Adding enough to fill the drain tube to the dump valve in both gray and black tanks will provide some insurance against freezing. But we -were not- using the RV water facilities. They make heaters for the tanks that you can stick to the bottoms. Running on 110v ac, you will need an electrical hookup. They also make propane heaters that appear to do the job also, but when the temps drop to under 0, you're in for the ride. If anything at all with the heat quits, even for a few hours, things will freeze. Leave heat off for a day or more, and you'll have frozen tanks. I considered running the engine exhaust close to the undercarriage tanks. That would have allowed me to utilize the engine's exhaust to protect the tanks, in a worse case scenario. We lost power for 1/2 day during the winter. The genset wouldn't start and broke the starter drive and I ran out of propane. Our house was on the side of a good sized New England "hill" and the road was impassable. Things froze and there was little I could do about it. The tank drain froze first, so the tanks could not be dumped. I Think about it all, whenever I consider putting the tanks inside. Rock salt? I don't think so. | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
So much for rock salt......seemed like a plausable idea, but second thoughts usually bring one around. Good points JTNG. BUT>>>>>>>>>I wintered at 25 below 0 in Almont, Colorado several years back, and had absolutely no problem with anything inside. Used regular plumbing insulation, several light bulbs in plumbing areas and did not use the black tank and dumped directly into a sewer connection. Because we were away from the unit two or three days each week, we kept fresh water disconnected when we were not on site. Used lots of insulation around fresh water pipe, short hose and connection to trailer. The fresh water tank was not used, but due to light bulbs in the area , the tank, nor the pump ever froze. For insurance, we always poured RV Antifreeze into the traps and commode. Faucets open and Hot water heater and heat on. Key was good insulation of all plumbing and the light heat. I vote for all inside tanks and plumbing, where possible. FWIW. RCB '64 Crown Supercoach (HWC) | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
Forgots to mention that sometimes even a bilge pump will fail to prime even though they are supposed to. Usually the failure is in the engineering of the pump location. Easy to fix. They respond better if they can be given a "head" of water above the pump on the suction side. The lateral distance the pump SUCKS or moves the water usually does not matter that much... ...as long as the pipe is sized big enough. By physically mounting the bilge pump under the sunken tub, the couple of inches of water that accumulates between your toes showering is more than enough to let it establish prime. Years ago we used this technique moving our well water 300 feet laterally pulling from a 8 foot deep water well with the pump physically located in the cabin WITH a 3 foot high water column to... ..."fool" the water pump into establishing and maintaining suction, prime and pressure to the solar cabin. Anyway, give the pump some "head" (what?) and go to a rotory timer switch and you... ...will have no problems. Again, in my Crown, the PLANNED water, gray and black tanks will be located overtop the 8 rear wheel wells INSIDE the coach. "AUUUUGGGHHHHH!!!!, I smell a leak!" CROWNS FOREVER!!! |