| Author | Message | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I'm still tossing between all electric and elec/propane for appliances. So... without using "theory", or engineering hypothesis and input only from those that are actually doing it (no insult intended): For what duration of continuous time, has anyone used an inverter and batteries to power their 10 cubic foot (or larger?) refrigerator? Is it less expensive to buy appliances that use propane and use propane for heat, hot water and refrigeration? Or is it less expensive (and more practical) to go "all electric" and buy batteries, inverters and the less expensive electric appliances? The size of area I'd need for all the batteries, is also of concern. | ||
| Ed Roelle
Rating: N/A |
I can only give some general times since I run many other components, other than my refrigerator, from batteries and an inverter. I can run 1-2 days from my 450 amp-hr, 24 volt battery and 18 cu. ft. efficient Amana refrigerator. This is in the ball park of theoretical times. It will depend on other electrical loads, outside temperature, and whether you are comfortable to pull your batteries down more than 50%. It is probably a good practice to run the generator once a day when running other high electrical loads. When traveling every day, there is no need to charge batteries other than from the bus alternator. For out type of travel and family size, this works best. If you boondock for extended times, another approach may be more desireable. Ed Roelle Flint, MI | ||
| Frank Allen Rating: N/A |
i just use gas when im running, and anytime im parked with no elec, works for me Frank Allen 4106 | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
jtng...it depends what you plan to use/how you plan to use...your coach,if you plan to camp out in the boondocks for a week or two...or..like me..go a couple days & then plug into a power pole...if I'm out more than three days...stop at wal-mart & get a chunk of dry ice.... | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
a propane ref. cost 800+ an elec. costs 300 | ||
| David Dickens (Debdav)
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I do not know the eficiency of propane over electricity on an absorbtion refer. I assume that 120 VAC has it all over 12VDC. But does 12VDC inverted to 120 VAC for the refer use mucho 12VDC?, efficiently? And consider the loss of energy during the inversion process. I guess this needs to be a new discussion. | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
Propane need to be level to work efficently. 110 volts dont care. Im going 110 volt cost and ease of use. Im still looking at sizes I may go with 2 smaller ones and make a side by side out of them and when one fills up use the other one. But If it only a day trip or week end use only the one. And the power use is very little a very small inverter and bett will run one for a long time. Brian 4905 klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| H3 (Ace)
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For all of those that are about to install a fridge of sorts in their coach, I JUST got mine in FINALLY! Without taking out a window I took a chance on the largest I could get (18CF) without much TOO MUCH trouble. I went to Sears and bought a floor model WAY below retail which was about a 3rd of what it would have cost. I really don't care that that particualr model is going to be discontinued. The price was right, the color was right and the SS door opens the right way for our application. Just be very careful handling the bottom. It's VERY sharp as I have a new cut to show for it! OUCH! Go electric so when it's time is up, you can easily get another at a good price! Well a better price than propane that is! Ace | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
There's a whole market (bordering on "subculture") for "off-grid" solar living in home environments, which includes appliances. Good info at: http://www.windsun.com/Misc_AE/Sunfrost.htm Whole bunch here, including the perhaps questionable "Sunfrost" (see above): http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalogpages2/refriger2.htm#NOVAKOOL%20R-3800 The "Novacool" unit shown right there is to me, all the *fridge* I'd need. Get a small freezer unit in addition maybe... There's an interesting quote here: http://www.backwoodssolar.com/interests/HomeAppliances.htm ------------ GAS : A refrigerator’s need for power matches solar electric's increased production in summer and less in winter. But a gas refrigerator can relieve a large electrical load from a power system, and cut the initial cost of a power system. Added solar modules for electric refrigeration raise the up-front cost, whereas propane gas is paid over 15 + years. Cost comparison is close either way (if gas prices don't rise). CAUTION: COMBINATION GAS-ELECTRIC refrigerators are usable only as GAS POWERED, not as electric. They use an electric heater, running nearly full time, to replace the gas flame. They use much more power than an electric compressor type, so they work well only as GAS. Backwoods Catalog lists several gas (propane) refrigerators which use less than 1/4 gallon of propane in 24 hours. ------------ Holy crap! If this is correct, the way to go for long-term boondocking is a pure electric fridge of maximum energy efficiency. When building our coaches, it seems to me that a moderate solar bank in the $500 range won't cost THAT much more than a 50gal propane tank with associated plumbing. There's much MUCH more good info all over that last link. One interesting detail: true sine wave inverters make all your electricity needs more energy efficient than modified sine wave, and you need true sine for laser printers and other high-tech goods. Better to go that way from the start. | ||
| Jerry Liebler Rating: N/A |
I've decided I'm going electric, but want all the battery life I can get, I figure I can use 3.5kwh between charges. I have 4 L16's and a sine wave inverter. So I'm shoping for a refrigerator. So far the best I've found is an Avanti 1201-W. It's a single door, manual defrost 11.3 cu ft that uses 277kwh/year according to the energy star site. I think I can get it for $320 + 125 shipping. Has anyone found lower energy use at less than double the price? | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
my refrig. cost 300.00 at Sears...and they delivered it....said on the tag it uses 27.00 worth of electric a year... | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all the info, guys! Ed- Your 1 to 2 days worth of running a 18cf unit sounds OK! You said you run it on one 24v battery? Do you use a battery for the engine and one for the "house", or just one 24v source? Since we stay wherever we can overnight while travelling from one place to another, the batteries should be receiving a charge at least every other day from either the engine or a genset. It's the recycle time that I'm concerned with, and the amount of batteries I'll need. I found a 10cf fridge at Lowes for under $300 that appears to be extremely efficient. Used propane refrigerators and RV types all cost more... It's a tough decision for us, since we may want to heat or cook with propane when necessary. If I have to carry bottles of propane, using a fridge that uses propane would make sense. With the usual RV fridge, I would set the fridge on propane and forget about it. At the campground, I'd change it to run on park power. If I run the 110v fridge, it'll be the inverter and batteries, inverter and alternator, genset, or park power. I guess it's coming down to a decision... basing it on how much propane versus how many batteries... to just run the fridge.... And... maybe the worry of running out of inverted power... versus the cost of running out of propane. Decisions, decisions... | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
5.00 of dry ice in the frezer compartment lasts a few days if wrapped in newspaper | ||
| Jerry Liebler Rating: N/A |
When shoping fo a refrigerator to be used on batterys the most significant tag is the one the FEDs mandate giving the KWH/year lower is better, The refrigerators I've seen at Lowes etc. in the 9 - 12 cu ft class were always 380KWH/year or there abouts. The Avanti 1201-w however is only 277KWH/year. That means 37% longer battery charge life. The sunfrost is only 171KWH/year which would allow over twice the time on a given charge but is it worth $2000? Perhaps The Avanti with a couple of inches of foam glued to it's sides will do. Regards Jerry | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Great resource: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/edcams/eande/appliances/data/2004/fridge/fridge_fridgefreez e_mandef_eff.pdf | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Jerry- Thanks! For future reference, I found this URL to help find the power consumption of each: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/edcams/eande/appliances/data/2004/fridge/fridge_fridgefreez e_mandef_eff.pdf | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Holy crap. (makes my skin crawl) | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
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John I run a small 90 watt 120 volt ref. in my 4104 from an 8d battery it will run for 3 days with out being charged however I did modify the ref. thermostat to only run the inverter when the ref. needs to cycle on. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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As far as the range goes, what if we could have two "burners" that are gas and another two electric, for max flexibility? Check this out: http://www.avantiproducts.com/mini/mini.html Small electric oven/toaster with two electric range "burners" on top. $110 at: http://www.livingincomfort.com/avtfmikiwico.html Mount that behind two propane burners and you can use whatever. Set up the propane burners so there's a cutting board thingie you can lay over 'em if you're not using them for heat, that way you get dual use of that space. In theory, the propane burners can be a small camp unit built into the counter with screw-in bottles. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Tim- Good idea.. Turning off the inverter when the fridge doesn't need the power would save even more power! I'm looking at the manual defrost models, since they appear to be more energy efficient than the auto-defrost types. The Avanti looks good also, but a top freezer would be nice to have... I would much prefer to buy a $300 electric fridge. I'm going to need a few batteries and a 24v inverter anyway.. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Jim- You can buy small portable electric burners and put them anyplace on the counter you want, at any time you want them. On the road, we used an electric fry pan (Rival), an electric deep fryer/pot (Rival) and an electric coffee pot (Farberware), when we had electric and didn't want to use up the propane. Hey, how about this: http://www.scanmarineusa.com/W125.htm A diesel powered stove/heater! | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
OH yeah! That looks suuuweeeeet! That plus a heat strip-equipped overhead AC and that's probably all the heat you need, esp. if the kitchen is basically in the middle somewhere. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
John that newguy, one thing to remember about the propane vs electric heating and cooling. A 60 lb. golf cart battery is good for about 1700 BTU of heating between charges when boondocking. That is about equal to 2 1/3 liquid oz. of propane. The RV refer uses 1500 BTU/hour when the flame is on high, according to the specs on our Dometic. We need to heat with fuel, so there really wasn't any other way for us to go. Good luck. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I know, Tom. As much as I hate it, propane seems to win out. Since the batteries aren't indefinitely rechargeable and the propane tank is, is another plus. The initial cost of a propane appliance may not be as bad as first assumed, when the long run is weighed.... On the RV(s), I've had the alternators die and the genset break down, and both occur when we were not at anyplace to stay. Having a way to cook and fresh food at hand in spite of the lack of sufficient electricity, was also a plus. Oh well..... | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
The newest of the new 12v fridges will use less than half the total amps of any 120 v setup. Hassle is the unit will cost as much as a proper propane setup , and you can't park in the shade if you like cold food. A really good DC gen set could keep the batts relativly charged , but unless they get back to 100% fairly often they loose capacity over the long term. For months of Ez living propane cant be beat. For a weekend or two electric can be made to work OK with some noisemaker hours every day and a LARGE supply of battery amps. For example "It's a single door, manual defrost 11.3 cu ft that uses 277kwh/year according to " Da Math , divide 277 be 360 to get the KW per day. Convert the KW into your house voltage , and you will have the amps your bat set will need to provide every 24 hours. Cut the 20hour rate of your bat set in half (to preserve the batt life) and you have the amps avilable to use. Compare , and go by propane, FAST FRED | ||
| tjhannink
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"The "Novacool" unit shown right there is to me, all the *fridge* I'd need. Get a small freezer unit in addition maybe..." Nova-Kool builds larger units as well with freezers. <http://www.novakool.com/products.html> I have a RFU 6200 refrigerator-freezer in my coach. It has a 3.5 cu fridge and a 2.0 cu freezer and runs on 12-vdc using 30-watts/hour at 80F ambient temperature. My Vanagon Camper has a portable 120-VAC/12-VDC top-load Dometic refrigerator. I throw it in the coach as a drink cooler when we get on the road. Good luck, TJHannink Winter Park, FL 1981 Bluebird Wanderlodge, FC-33SB 1987 Vanagon Camper, Wolfsburg Edition | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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I will have a used propane refrig. for sale in the spring....the heating element for elec. is burnt out...but runs fine on propane 400.00 & you take it out | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Ace - I'm gonna let you "install" my new J-couch when i get it - you da man - niles | ||
| H3 (Ace)
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Gee thanks Niles! As you probably guessed, were on a roll once again, as in moving forward! Actually, were just starting the kitchen which is where we left off. Had to make some money so we could and really hated doing that! Ace Hey by the way, that guy ever get back with you from Texas? | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Ace - Texas is a big state - guess he just got lost - good thing I didn't spend the money huh? - glad to hear your making progress - can't wait to go on a road trip w/ you and susan as soon as the weather warms up - as long as you don't point out how much money I wasted not doing my own conversion like you - OUCH! - keep me well medicated and I won't have to worry about all the money I wasted - Have you got any new pics for us ? | ||
| H3 (Ace)
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Don't worry Niles, I wouldn't do that! If I had the money you have I would burn mine and be proud of what I COULD have gotten! As for bus pics? No! You see, I was told I was a board hog by posting pics of my work in progress so I stopped. It's those guys that only TALK about what they PLAN on doing that feel this way. I'm a doer not a planner. Never planned anything that turned out good so I just jump right in and do it! Ace | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
"I was told I was a board hog by posting pics of my work in progress so I stopped. It's those guys that only TALK about what they PLAN on doing that feel this way. I'm a doer not a planner. Never planned anything that turned out good so I just jump right in and do it! Ace" "I think I'll take a stick and poke at eyes.... and complain when they poke back........Yeah, that's the ticket." Before retiring, I usually spent more time evaluating and planning a job, than I did, doing the work. Other's that "jumped right in" often took twice as long to get the job done. Once they were on that unplanned course, they had no option other than to attempt to fix mistakes at each occurred. And undoing one mistake usually meant undoing the mistake before it. It takes longer to undo a job and re-do it, than to do it right initially with proper planning. There was an old Italian story... where a truck driver asks a farmer how far down the very rocky road to the next village.... The farmer says "about a half hour; four, if you hurry". | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Well I'm a "planner only" so far, but that's because my cash isn't here yet  . And I can assure you that pics on this board won't bother me. It would however be a good idea to put something like "(PICS!)" in the subject line to warn low-bandwidth users. | ||
| Mike Eades (Mike4905)
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I have a 2500 watt inverter in my 4905. I run a full house refrigator with ice maker and the tv's at night. No problem. I run a 15kw ac unit in the daytime while running down the road. I can't run both ac's but one no problem. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Ace - screw that s*** just give me the link again - your doin what we're lookin for - THIS IS A BUS CONVERSION BOARD ISN'T IT - lets have at it - I got no reason to log on to it w/o some conversion news - Niles |