| Author |
Message |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 1:31 pm: | |
HI
Is the program used for arranging and assigning a funtion to the pinouts (DDEC IV) just a CD in a laptop or does it have a connection to Detroit as in reprogramming? I don't mean HP or Jake changes as I know they are DD related. Pinouts cannot be asigned by the Pro-Link so I thought a CD that they use might be available to purchase. I remember you saying you worked at a DD dealer. Also do you know anything about ATEC as used on the V731 transmission? Thanks. Bill |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 2:10 pm: | |
Jim has the FLU....might be a while before he feels like getting on the board |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 10:39 pm: | |
Thanks Twodogs. Bill |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 1:20 am: | |
Hi Bill,
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but DDEC III has a specific pinout for various parameters for the communications harness from ECM to the diagnostic port. I think all versions of DDEC use the same hardware configuration, except possibly DDEC V.
Each flash code reading device, whether ProLink, Nexiq, Palm Pilot, or PC based, all use some type of hardware interface plug the get the proper signal from the 6 pin diagnostic port in the driver's area. Each pin has a specific function. That cannot be changed. The various softwares used by various reader manufacturers merely knows how to pick out the codes and other data in the various protocol data streams coming from the ECM.
And each manufacturer of the listed devices supply their own interface cable to plug into the 6 pin diagnostic port. Also, not all reading/programming devices will see or use the same parameters.
Hope this helps a little. |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 3:42 am: | |
Chuck
Maybe I can explain it a little better. When you hook up the Pro-Link to a DDECIV ECU it will tell you the funtion of each of the pins relating to digital input and digital output that has been programmed into the particular ECU. For example if idle shutdown has been turned on you can change the parameters within idle shutdown like length of time etc. If cruise control has not been asignned to this ECU then you cannot turn it on unless you go to the DD dealer and they use a laptop to tell the ECU which pins to use for that funtion. After the cruise funtion has been turned on then the Pro-Link will alter the parameters within the cruise control.When I took the ECU to the dealer they asked me which pin I was talking about (had to be one of the digital inputs or outputs) And they asignned the pin the funtion I wanted. They can do this for a limited number of funtions without hooking into the DD site by the use of a laptop. You cannot get HP changes or add Jake brakes without DD site hookup. I was wondering if a person could buy the CD that they used in the laptop just to change the primary funtions. I know you cannot buy the CD for HP etc as you have to be a DD dealer for that. Hope this is a little clearer. The reason we are after info like this is that we are installing a 6V92TA with DDECIV on it. I know even the dealer shook his head when I mentoned DDECIV on a 2 stroke but after he checked the serial number on the DD main frame it was true. It had been upgraded to DDECIV. Bill |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:13 am: | |
Bill,
I think I understand now. Several issues here. All the versions of DDEC use industry standard protocols to convey information between ECM and engine, ECM and transmission, ECM and diagnostic reader, etc. You may hear of J1587, J1708, J1922, J1939. Each one of these numbers represent a different communication protocol. Each protocol defines different parameters for different engine and/or transmission functions. Some contain chassis and air brake system command/control data.
In simple terms, each new version of DDEC contains more data, comming from more protocols. With this in mind, for example, DDEC III uses only two of the six pins on the diagnostic plug to read one or more protocol "data streams". DDEC IV uses two separate pairs of pins for a total of 4. It is like filling a bucket with water. You can get more water into the bucket in a set period of time with two hoses than with one. I presume the Pro-Link is asking which data pair you want to use. Of course, that depends on what you want to see. On one hand, I am surprised it asks you to make the choice. On the other hand, I talked to an engineer at MPSI, the manufacturer of the Pro-Link unit (the mfg. name is now Nexiq), and he said the basic unit really has not changed since I purchased mine in 1993 to use on gasoline engine diagnostics. All of the "smarts" in these devices are in the plug-in modules, and I was looking into purchasing the diesel plug-in module, and the Detroit specific card that plugs into the generic diesel module. I wanted to know if I could use my basic Pro-Link reader. The answer was yes. I only needed to buy the plug-in module and plug-in card. But I didn't buy either due to a thing called "copyright".
The protocols above, plus OBD II for gas vehicles manufactured since 1996, were designed by SAE so various vehicle and/or engine manufacturers would all be on the same page -- from a diagnostics point of view. This stuff is public information that any diagnostic scanner/reader manufacturer can use. The main point here is each manufacturer could add control or data information that was proprietary to that manufacturer.
A case in point: I had a 1994 Trans Am. I have Ford and GM modules for my Pro-Link. The Pro-Link could read "most" of the data stream data, and I could activate some controls, such as cooling fans on/off, etc. I wanted to work on the brake system and discovered I had to give a command to the brake system for something -- I don't recall. The point is this command could only be applied to the ECM with the scann tool manufactured by only one company, because only that company had the "rights" to use that particular "non-public" portion of the computer code.
This is the same thing you are facing with the "turn on" commands you mention. I realize Bill, you probably already understand this, but many don't. Becasue it isn't about technical issues, it's about money. You can spend lots of bucks on Pro-Link readers and cartridges. Or you can buy DD specific Palm Pilot software. Or you can get the DD "Diagnostic Link Software" that works directly with a PC. Each of these devices give more information than the other, in the order listed. But NONE of them allow you to unlock or
"turn on" certain parameters as you noted in your post.
Very simply, you need a VEPS unit if you want the keys to the kingdom. VEPS is Detroit's Vehicle Electronic Programming System. Basically it's a laptop with adapters and it uses copyrighted software to unlock certain parameters, as you noted. From what I've been told by a retired DD employee that worked in this area, even the dealer had to download the copyrighted software into their VEPS unit to get the unlock codes. No CD's was Detroit's way to keep control on proprietary software. This is not unique to DD. I have seen this in other fields totally unrelated to engines.
I'm sure CAT, Cummins, and others do the same thing.
I would be wary about the dealer you work with. If the dealer is asking what pin your talking about, that's a concern. They should know more about this than the customer. Also, why would the dealer shake their head about your having a DDEC 2 stroke engine. Lot's of 2 strokes have DDEC engines installed.
One last thing. If your transmission uses ATEC (Allison Transmission Electronic Controls) a plug-in module is manufactured to work with the Pro-Link reader.
I'm sorry for being long winded, but for me, I find background information helpful in understanding a topic. |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 2:08 pm: | |
Don't know that I've ever heard of a DDECIV and a 6v92 though ??????? - certainly rare if not unique - Niles |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 3:39 am: | |
Chuck
Thanks for the very easy to understand way of putting that DD is the only way to get certain things done. Like you said it is all about money and control of the software. I was able to figure out a 6V92TA DDECIV with a V730 for a friend of mine and it runs really sweet. We had the local DD dealer program the pinouts to our likeing which is from a Prevost diagram and add cruise control. My problem is useing the V731 ATEC with the 6V92TA DDECIV. I have it figured out now with the help of a lot of different people. Thanks again for the info. Bill |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 3:46 am: | |
Niles
We bought these 6V92TA DDECIV's from a guy that buys up surplus things from bus companys. They came from Chicago Transit and were standby engines that were completly rebuilt ready to install over night in case of breakdowns. Apparently now when a company rebuilds DD's they have to upgrade to DDECIV due to polution restrictions. Kits are sold for this purpose. They are running Cummins now so sold off the DD as they had no use for them. Their loss our gain. Bill |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 4:54 am: | |
Bill - sweeeeet - looks like the environmental regs have some benefit for even us 'bus' guys - its a win win when you can get a deal on a new mill and benefit the environment at the same time - thanks for the info (education) - Niles |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 11:02 am: | |
Bill,
Now that you have DDEC, if your at all a techo geek like some of us, you can see all the engine parameters, tach, speed, milage, flash codes, and much more on a LCD screen in the cockpit. The really neat aspects of this are: 1) The data is more accurate than gauges (as tested on a bus and truck),
2) Out of numerous parameters, you select only those you want to use, and 3) It is very easy to build your own screen the way you want. You can use analog or digital gauges, any type of layout, any color combination, etc. You can modify your layout any time. No programming at all. And the best part -- it is free, and you can run and modify the program on your PC without being attached to a DDEC port.
I found a place in Oregon called Silver Leaf Electronics. They make various hardware versions of digital dashboards for Country Coach and other high line manufacturers. One of their products call the VMSpc is a software only version you can download, build, and run. It comes with a default dash configuration to help you get started. It has twenty engine/speed/milage parameters you can use and you can add more such as Jake operational status.
http://www.simply-smarter.com is the site. No costs involved until you want put it into the bus.
At that time, the only thing you need to purchse is their interface box (protocol converter) that connects between the DDEC diagnostic port and your PC, either laptop or desktop. It's $399.
My 102A3 came with a bare minimum of gauges. Will replace the single air gauge with a dual tank model, and dump the rest. They will all be replaced with an LCD screen on the dash. Have tested it in place. Looks great. It will read flash codes from the screen if you want and you can run a maintenance log also.
Just food for thought.
Chuck |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 12:57 pm: | |
Chuck
Sounds neat. I will look into it at a later date for myself as I know the other bus that I did he is keeping the original dash that he made. He isn't into electronics as I am and he feels more comfortable with still leaveing the old gauges hooked up. They will be able to tell him if the engine shut down due to over heat, low oil, etc. I am showing him how to read the codes on the SEL and the CEL. He is learning pretty fast but he is 72 and it takes time. It hasn't been too bad as he is very mechanicly inclined. I have found it a real brain teaser as not to much material is available on DDECIV with ATEC so I have designed all the wiring myself with the help of a Prevost diagram then adding ATEC to it with an interface module. Friends of mine want to know when I am going to hang out my shingle for DDEC repairs as I have all the manuals pertaining to DDEC and ATEC installation, aplication and troubleshooting. I must have spent $1000 on books to learn all that is nessarary and then to top it off I got the Pro-Link Plus for DDEC III/IV and ATEC (CEC). Another $2000. I must be crazy (my wife says I am) But when you are retired and enjoy something as much as I do,you do it for the fun of it. My email addres says it all. Bill |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 11:32 am: | |
Bill,
We'll have to compare notes from time-to-time. My wife and I are retiring in four years this month. Or sooner if the bus is finished. We really want to fulltime. I'm paying as I go so won't have large bills to pay when retired. But it keeps me on my toes, cash flow wise.
I managed to get several new engine and DDEC manuals on Ebay for pennies on the dollar. A real must if you want to modify or troubleshoot these units. I could have got the two modules for the Pro-Link for about half of retail price, but didn't for the reasons mentioned earlier. It was simple economics for me: Pay about $900. for two modules that would basically duplicate the reader capability on the Palm Pilot, or have Southern Oregon Diesel unlock and check/program whatever parameters for $400. when do the Jake install. I found that function has to be unlocked also. |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 9:23 pm: | |
Chuck
Keep in touch as there isn't too many guys out there with DDEC units. I to bought a fair number of books on Ebay. Good value and sometimes ones that can't be gotten anywhere else. Bill |
|