| Author | Message | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Folks, Found an interesting critter...it was originally a Bluebird 34' bus, now fully converted to "near Wanderlodge specs" mid-'80s, and looks it outide, pretty close inside (and as good as most conversions, needs minor upholstery updates, etc). Shell was a 1970 but in excellent condition. Needs nothing to be functional right now, even the batteries are good. I'll be adding an inverter, very little else. 4kw Onan gas genset with it's own 34gal gas tank...in other words, it ain't a Prevost Palace but it's solidly functional. Guy wants $17k which seems pretty reasonable...the minor tweaks I'd want I can do myself over time. One BIG difference over a Wanderlodge is the tranny: 5sp manual with a 2sp rear axle  . All Wanders are autos. Motor is "interesting": Cummins 504 v8 diesel, puller-mount (with proper sound insulation) which is the same motor as the "triple nickle" 555 but smaller bore. Rebuilt less than 100k ago, guy has papers on that. Apparantly ballpark similar to the 3208 normally aspirated and is an easy swap to the 3208 block if I need to down the road. He says it works best at 65mph, it'll go faster but "strains". From what I can tell, a 3208Turbo set to 250hp will spin higher Rs than the 504/555, so the way it's geared now I oughta get a speed boost if I ever do that. He did the rear axle himself to get the Rs down and speed up. Guy says he just scored a new rig, used the old all the time, always towed a small SUV and even then got a steady 9mpg even with some hills tossed in, which is better than the 6-7 or so most Wanderlodge people admit to. Between the manual tranny and the much smoother roof (Wanderlodges have ALL that "crap" up there, this has just AC pods) I suspect his milage is believable and that puts it in a class with a 4106, etc. Conversion appears generally good, proper insulation, etc. Needs a full checkout of course. Guy says the frame rails are beefy and come to within inches of the back bumper. Which suggests to me that a platform could be done by extending off the frame, small bike enclosure, yada yada yada. You know me. Still researching this point and hope to examine that era Bluebird locally somehow. Seems feasable though and wouldn't involve major mods or too much extra weight. And since it still has a working rear door, I can connect that straight into the "bike pod" and make the sideways bike ramp door a "locks from the inside only" proposition radically increasing security (yay!). Now here's my questions: 1) Is that sort of Cummins motor any good? And as long as it's OK for now, is a swap to a 3208 block down the road easy enough? Would seem so, and I've priced complete rebuilt 3208T motors at $5k or less here and there. 2) Does the spring suspension of the pre-1980 Bluebird frame suck TOO badly going down the road? Downside is it ain't as cushy, upside (I think?) is that it should be more reliable than airbags. If the ride quality isn't too bad, fine but comments/advice desired! ----------- Overall, if this puppy will work out and the frame mod/bike pod can be done in the $5k - $6k range or a tad more like I think, then I'll have plenty extra in the budget for an inverter, better fridge, some seating updates and a few other goodies. Thoughts? | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"with proper sound insulation " Is realistically NOT possable , as the diesel noise reflects off the pavement outside and is LOUD if you ever open the front window. I had a FC Wanderlodge and the ride is fine , however springs , like air bags or rubber hinges wear out. Thats GOOD ! as you can weigh the coach and have the spring folks install the correct springs to carry the exact load you have. Then the ride is First Class. Big advantage I found with the 30 ft unit was the ability to go with complete ease in urban and suburban areas . Not a fan of powersteering , but after rebuilding it was OK , and the rapid ratios avilable with power made even the smallest back roads and tiny driveways a snap! FAST FRED | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
look in the ebay section...got a number for you | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
That guy is quite a salesman! It could be considered "near-Wanderlodge specs", or it could more likely be considered a school bus conversion. I wouldn't buy it with that Cummins engine, and the two-speed rear end is simply an attempt to deal with low power and bad gearing. Keep looking! 17k is a lot for an old skoolie. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Rating: N/A |
504 cummins I have one in my excavator. Not a bad industrial engine but certainly not the cleanest running diesel going. The 504 has top rpm of 3300 wich is a high rpm for diesel. It has a top h.p. rating of approx. 200 h.p. so its not going to be a power house. Add to that when the rpm gose down the h.p. drops quickly due to the short stroke. If this one is a turbo model that will help on the clean burning but won't really add much power. | ||
| truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A |
I think I have seen this school bus conversion advertised elsewere. If it is the same 35 year old school bus camper I would think it a bit expensive at $17,000. Real Wonderlodges that are less than half that age often go for a less money with a more suitable engine and low miles. Not saying this one isn't worth the extra as I have not inspected it up close. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Couple points here: It DOES seem to be a good conversion. I'll be checking that out of course! But the floorplan he's got is perfect for my needs, very complete, the "back door" is useful to me, there's proper insulation and a reduction in window glass, etc. It may have started life as a "schoolie" but it isn't now. The gearing setup is GREAT as far as I'm concerned! Sure, it may have been a "patch" to deal with a lower-perf motor but it'll be big fun once I repower down the road. And I can definately see a 3208T @ 250 in it's eventual future, and the coach price now plus motor prices on 3208Ts are low enough that I'd still be in decent shape (and inside budget) if the 504 blows 100 miles down the road. Not like I expect it to but basically I'm inside my safety margins here, ya know? If the sound level is a BIT high it's not a major problem for me. Hell, I'm a biker, remember? I've heard what a Wanderlodge front-puller with a Cat 3208 sounds like and this shouldn't be any worse...he really has coated the doghouse properly inside and out. Remember, if I want a bike strapped to the back one way or another, I really have to avoid true pushers. That basically limits me to Crown mid-motors and the pullers. Yes, a true Wanderlodge would have more resale value. But they're also automatics with abysmal milage, so bad that I've been discounting the type completely until now. As I'm not buying for resale value but for *my needs*...yeah, I'm considering this and if resale value is the ONLY concern... I'll be doing more research on that motor though (ponderponder). It does seem to be the weak link here. Does anybody know which modern Cummins motor might fit the exact same motor mounts as the old Triple Nickle? You'd think they have a more modern re-power alternative. I'll call Cummins Monday; if there is such a thing and if it isn't too expensive, it'll cut down the re-power costs considerably. | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
ive been considering repowering my chris-craft roamer with a pair of 6bt (5.9) cummins diesels... even went so far as to buy a salvage 1 ton pickup, to get the engine...then i found out tha the cummins is too long to economically fit...i think you'll find that out too... the 504/555 cummins, 3208 cat, 9.0 liter ihc, are all about the same size.... if you're serious about repowering, consider using a ford powerstroke...lots of them with allison autos running around realy cheap in schoolies.... | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Hmmm. Yeah. Come to think, one advantage of this critter is that a LOT of parts will be similar to old schoolies, even dog-noses. And those are often DIRT cheap, $3k or similar. Grab the motor, maybe even tires if you're lucky, God only knows. what else. Yeah, definate option for a cheap re-power donor if I have to. And that tranny/axle combo will make as little as 200hp usable if necessary. It all fits with one of my requirements: be able to keep it running half of forever even if operating on an extreme budget. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
7.3 ford turbo...nice...in alot of pick-ups & school buses...did you look at those two buses I put in the ebay section here ?? | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Yeah, just now . I'd seen the one with the open platform already. Not useful to me except to show that the engineering still works that way. The second, fully enclosed with the "flame nose job" IS more interesting. Problems though: it's a 454 gasser, it's still "mostly schoolie" in terms of windows/insulation/lack of RV stuff and as a final issue, I don't NEED a garage big enough to hold an entire car! Not hardly - I'm a biker. A 6ftx8ft cargo trailer mounted sideways on the back would do fine and 5x7 would work in a pinch. So despite how cool these are, assuming the weight distribution works out and the frame can cope, stretching the back end of a 34fter 6ft and adding an "aft mini-garage" works better for me and gets me up and running a LOT faster with the "RV part" already a done deal. I'll tell you this much though: if that dude with the "flatbed rear end" critter 4527578511 can fit an entire 4x4 truck *behind* the rear axle(!) and cruise along OK, it means the frame has gotta be pretty much bulletproof and the weight issues not a problem for what I want. I'd still get a competent semi-tractor frame man on the question... (The other EBay item in question is 4529251843 - clearly a LOT more sane than doing a swing-out nose on a freakin' 870!!!) | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
careful about mounting something on the back..... in addition to design problems, there are laws that address "load extension" past the rear axle.... trucks that haul cotton modules had to get an "agriculture variance" to be legal... because so much of the truck bed extends past the rearmost axle.... | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
one other thing...you already have a TREMENDOS overhang on bluebirds....turn right & ya' wipe out the car in the left lane next to you...add more overhang....I see a bunch of lawsiuts | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Hmmmmm. Well worst case, I do a 2ftx6ft little sideways rail for the bike and just use a cover over it. Nowhere near as secure though. Still, with a good rear-view camera/screen set up and some care it might still work. Maybe position two high on each side, pointing backwards and placed right over the rear axles. That would let you watch the "swingout factor". Gotta check all that out though re: overhang laws. | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
I agree, too, that $17k is a bit high for this rig. The Cat 3208 is not a very good engine. Unfortunately, I found this out after I got a fire truck with one. It is not torquey, it is VERY noisy, it smokes more on startup than any diesel I have ever seen and the smoke really STINKS. It is also an engine that needs main and large rod bearings replaced at 75k miles. If you don't do this it will self destruct. This engine is not even listed by Cat as a truck engine, it is called a pump engine, meaning fire pump usually. Truckers refer to it as a "throw away" engine. The Cummins 6B is a great engine. I'm not familiar with the Ford Power Stroke except I know it is made by International and they have always made great engines. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
have no idea what kind of motorcycle you ride...take the tank off & put it in the bay,that's what I would do | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Isn't the 3208 a cast cylinder engine, meaning no liners or have I confused it with something else? | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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that's it...only one compression ring...not much of an engine... | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Hmmm. The Wanderlodge folks mostly like their 3208s. But this isn't the first "dis" I've heard on that Cat. Did some digging. This Cummins 504 likes to spin up at a hair over 3,000rpm. That's WAY past a 3208 so for damnsure I'd be looking at an axle gear (or axle) swap to repower that way. The Powerstroke on the other hands spins up in the same territory as the Cummins in there now...should work fine on the same tranny and axle. The 5sp tranny on there is syncro on everything 'cept first and reverse gears. The 504 was rebuilt 65k miles ago and is currently tuned for 225hp and running strong. So I'd be willing to bet I can get another 100k minimum out of it before I have to worry about anything else and double that is possible. As to the value. The guy paid attention to details. Heated mirrors, Wanderlodge-clone paint job of good quality, new single-piece rims and tubeless tires with lots of life left, much more. And he did most of it himself, being experienced with a couple other prior conversions. No, it ain't a Wanderlodge. But...between the tranny/axle with it's milage advantage, the rear door which is genuinely useful to me, lots more, I'd feel bad trying to lowball him. I think he really has come close to the value of an early '80s Wanderlodge in good condition, and he's charging for it. Would I get my money back selling it tomorrow? Nope. Would I get value over the next 10 years because it's easier to fix, gets better milage, is easier to set up like I want? Yeah, I suspect so. I suspect my long-term costs over the next 10 years will be lower this way than if I started with a good GMC4106 @ $25k. Significantly. --------- As to extending the rear. I've been thinking about that. I think a "pod" only about 3ft wide and able to fit just one bike. And by making the floor of this new "mini garage" the same level as the TOP of the current rear bumper, I can avoid "rear scraping" issues. With the bike out, I can still drop down a 3ft-wide work table at one end of the mini-garage. Enough room for kydex molding and a small grinder for edge polishing, all I really need. It'll be a SMALL as hell garage but it will indeed be enough garage . | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
if I want a bike strapped to the back one way or another, I really have to avoid true pushers. We have a pusher and regulary carry a 1974 Honda XR250.310lbs. It's strong enough to carry the 600cc BMW R60-US, 500lbs . Many coaches have extra weight carring ability on the front axles , so maybe a 1200lb Harley could be used as hood ornament. FAST FRED | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Heh. OK, let's clarify. The bike in question will be a 2004 model BMW @ 550lbs max weight (Rockster or R1100S). But here's the kicker: for both security reasons and "keep it new looking" reasons, I don't want to just put it on a rail (even with a bike specialty cover tarp over it). I'd like to have it in a "box". Now this box does NOT have to be the full 6ft wide by 8ft long across the back (side loading) like I originally wanted (lengthening the coach by 6ft). I can get by with 3ft, or maybe 3.5. Figure, worst case, 500lb for the box (and that's being conservative, it can be done in less). Right now the Bluebird in question has all of it's fuel, wastewater, propane and batteries forward of the rear axle. That's good. The only weight behind the rear axle right now is 40gal of freshwater under a bed and a 4kw Onan gas genset. And there's an area under a second fridge in the kitchen that could easily take a second 40gal fresh tank, it's got 80gal waste, that's fine for now at least. By putting as little weight behind the rear axle as possible (and certainly no more than there is now), and by anchoring the 3ft-wide "garage" right to the primary frame beams, I think this is all doable. I *think*. I'll be seeking professional input on this within the next few days! But if it DOES work, we're past what could possibly be done on a pusher. Bigtime. (The rig right now has 40gal fresh, 40gal black, 40gal gray. Once I hit 80gal fresh I'll be in decent shape, although a bit under what I'd like. There appears to be room to expand the gray to the 80gal range and there's plenty of room for fresh. There's also 35gal propane and 30gal gasoline for the genset.) The second advantage of the "garage" (even a narrow one) is that with the bike out, I'd get a small folding workbench/stool area at one end for "dirty work" - and believe me, carving/grinding kydex is REALLY dirty! | ||
| H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A |
Jim just curious... what do you use the kydex for and where do you get yours? Ace | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
I get it from industrial building supply houses in 4ftx8ft sheets. Comes in different grades: .06" and .090/.093 are what I've mostly used so far. Place called "Interstate Plastics" stocks it although it's not on their website for some reason: http://www.interstateplastics.com/ The small sideline I set up in kydexworks has been on hold for a while (no shop space for starters) but a small portable shop of this sort would be perfect. Uses so far: I've designed a cellphone holder that's also motorcycle crash armor. For the cellphone! Sounds weird but if you're a biker it's NOT all a bad idea to have the phone survive (while staying on your person) the same crash that put you in a ditch with a broken leg. I also do knife sheaths, deep-concealment gun holsters and I've experimented a bit with custom crash armor using the heavier grades (.125" or more). And I once did an entire shower stall, re-lining two sides with a single sheet of .060 white . The stuff was originally meant as a tough wall covering that met building code for not producing toxic fumes in a fire. It's basically flame-retardent tough plastic. Which means if you heat it it turns soft and malleable long before it bursts into flames, so you can shape it with an industrial heat gun and mold it around...well basically anything. It could be used to make custom-shaped interior trim pieces in a motorhome conversion for that matter, SO LONG as your heat gun didn't fry anything else in the process! | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Getting back to this bus and it's value: It's a 34ft 1970 chassis with the mechanicals/drivetrain updated 1985 and a good interior/RV conversion done same era, to a build level very close to early '80s Wanderlodge specs. Motor seems to be equivelent (at a minimum) to a 3208 @ either 210hp or 225. It's still got the paint he did in '86, and due to care and indoor storage it looks as good as any mid-80s Wanderlodge paint. Total chassis milage is 225k, drivetrain/conversion/interior/paint about 65k. The VAST majority of the cherry Wanderlodges vintage between 1977 and 1982 have asking prices today at around $25k - $28k, with $30 or a bit over being pretty common. See also: http://www.vintagebirds.com/ (click on "for sale") or: http://birdconnection.com/indtwo.html Prices on RVTrader/RVTraderonline are all in this same ballpark. This guy is asking $17k for this "fake Wanderlodge" with a really cool manual drivetrain. Now granted, his market is smaller, he needs somebody that will appreciate the manual and needs to be a bit of a gearhead. So what IS the value of this thing? If $17k is over the top, what's fair? | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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sounds simular to the stuff they make hot tubs out of...used to watch them while they were loading my truck...they would get a BIG piece hot with giant elec. heat coils then ,put it over the mold & vacume the air out & in 30 seconds there was a hot tub... | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Yeah, there's a whole family of "high temp plastics" now. That would be significantly thicker than what I do. Basically, a lot of what can be done in leatherwork can be done in kydex and the "shop requirements" are broadly similar. A worktable as little as a square yard is find, using a very small bench grinder to one side and dremel-powering everything else needed. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
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Hi Jim Have you thought of perhaps mounting a 3 Ton truck tailgate on the back of this bus to form the "garage" and not have to worry about "heavy lifting" ? Joe. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Waiiiiiit... You mean take a standard "liftgate" about 4ft wide or so and set it up so it can't flip up, and put a box on it? Whoa. Now that's a HELL of an idea right there!!! NO RAMP! Lower the whole "garage" to street level. I like it. I like it a LOT. Only one issue...well wait, two issues: 1) It would be heavier. Gotta be at least another 400lbs worth of weight back there in the lift hardware. Not totally out of the question mind you. 2) Mating it up with the rear door would get tricky, if I wanted to be able to enter the garage from the back bedroom. Come to think, there's another problem: it's a hydraulic lift system that would have the weight of the bike ALL THE TIME. Well we know jacks can fail. I'm not sure lift gates are designed for that sort of continuous load while rolling down the street with bumps, in fact I know they're not. Hmmmmm. So we may have safety issues. No, on second thought, for $250 I can get a nice 3ft wide 9ft long motorcycle ramp designed to fold in the middle. Weighs maybe 25lb tops, folds up, goes in the garage. That and a fixed unit would be a lot simpler. I'll ask about liftgates at a local truck shop, there's a bunch in Sacramento here. But while cool as hell, I suspect the concept won't pan out. | ||
| H3 (Ace)
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Jim I use it to mfgr bumper channels on our 1/4 scale race cars. I made my own heater out of two water bed heater strips and mounted them on a piece of lexan. After I mark where I need my bend, I place the mark on center between the two strips for about 4 minutes. I take the piece out and put in the brake to make the channel. Cools down to a pretty keen bend and piece that sells pretty good too! Problem is it is a little costly at around 200 bucks a 4x8! Thanks Ace | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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That's...interesting, that is. Huh. I'll have to look at that. A lot of what I'm doing with kydex involves "molding it around something", be it a knife, gun, cellphone, whatever. I've done some custom pepper spray cannister holders. I did one for a small camera. I can literally "holster" anydangthing . Even the heavier grade kydex like the .125" is less than $100 per 4'x6' sheet. Would have probably made a better and lighter bumper than lexan. Another thing you can do with kydex: say you have a Mercedes Benz hood ornament. You can heat it up and press it into cold kydex, where it'll "brand" a molded impression. Ditto any metal shape. You could have a "Ford" or "Chevy" or whatever raised logo in the middle of the bumper . Old brass belt buckles are an excellent source of such patterns and are cheap at flea markets. | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Hmm...maybe sorta a hybrid of the liftgate/garage idea: use a lift/lowering ramp, but rather than a hydraulic pump, set it up to raise & lower with a manual jack--a trailer tongue jack, RV leveling jacks, car bumper jacks, or whatever. When raised, it would be held in place with locking pins. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Or put a "manual override lock" on a convensional liftgate. In other words, once up, put a pin in freezing it. Problem though, maybe: gotta reach under there and insert/remove the pin. Which might not be safe. Might be WAY unsafe in fact... Depends on where the lock pin(s) need to be. | ||
| H3 (Ace)
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No Jim I think you misunderstood! I DO use kydex for the bumper channel and they have a foam insert that takes the abuse! The kydex I use is 3/16 thick for fronts and 1/8 on rears! Still 200 bucks a sheet locally here! Ace |