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Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 2:14 am: | |
The bus it looks like I'm buying was built by a now-retired diesel mechanic in '86. Per the pictures and detailed phone conversations he's done a good job. This was his second successful conversion; #3 is 90% done and usable so it's time for this one to go.
One issue though is that he's not an electronics/computer guy and isn't up on the latest electronic tech. While it's probably good quality and properly wired, he's got a classic old '86-era tech "converter" for the 110v-to-12v battery charging.
Well that has to go.
Or does it?
Here's what I'm pondering: I need a good multi-stage battery charger, preferrably one that can be set for the battery size and technology (AGM, etc) and if possible one with temperature monitoring on the battery bank.
Now, you can get some good multi-stage chargers that eat 110v and put out finely tuned battery charging:
http://store.solar-electric.com/bach1.html
While certainly better than what's in the bus now (esp. with the $35 4-stage add-on), none that I've seen feature really high tech stuff such as a temp sensor.
These are however common in the various solar cell controllers/chargers either standard or a cheap add-on:
http://www.thesolar.biz/RV%20Power%20Products.htm
With the right unit like the 2000E shown there, cost really isn't much more than the 110v powered chargers, except these eat DC across multiple voltages (depending on what your solar panel array looks like) and put out finely tuned DC to the batteries.
So here's the question: could I put one of these solar controllers in between that 1986-tech converter's 13 to 14v output and the battery bank, effectively using shore or generator power as the equivelent of a 12vDC solar array?
(I haven't been able to learn whether or not these solar controllers can take DC inputs that low. Not yet anyhow.)
IF this would work, it would seem I can do a manual switch between feeding the solar controller battery charger between shore power, genset or a real solar array if I add one later.
How do people normally "skin this cat"? |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 2:46 am: | |
What I'm reading is you plan to charge the batteries at up to 14.2v (for AGM) or 14.4(for flooded cell) with say 14.4 from a converter (assuming you can maintain it at that level). All of the solar controllers I have used (3 diff brands, currently a 24v Trace C35) have utilized a higher voltage array (17.4v for 12v; abt 35 for 24v) for the source of power. I really don't know if this drop is directly relational to the input but it certainly would seem necessary to know before trying it.
I would just bite the bullet and go w/a good inverter w/charging function; throw the damn converter away or give it to someone that really doesn't give a damn about their batteries. Save the solar controller for the day that u waste your money on a solar array, as opposed to investing in another KW of genset that will produce more power than u have space on your roof for panels to equal it and at approx. 10x the cost (I guess u can tell that I am not a big proponent of solar; I have several $k worth just to prove that it ain't all it's cracked up to be! In fact, it ain't worth the cost of the freight to get it IMHO. Long live Kubota and Izusu. |
Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 4:05 am: | |
I hear you regarding the solar panels. I'm not going to invest in same now and probably not ever.
But...OK, here's my issues:
I'm going to do a LOT with 12v DC power versus AC. That includes fridge (Danfoss compressor-based). More or less my only uses for inverter-supplied power will be computer gear, low-power TV/stereo and short periods of microwave.
The computer gear I'll be running will be fairly low power demand but very expensive, esp. the satellite internet connection @ $4k <eek!>. And I'm also going to need short runs with a real laser printer.
I need a true sine wave setup, both for the printer and to go easy on my power supplies versus modified sine. And I strongly suspect I can live with about 1500-1800w, which improves my battery drain efficiency via something like a Prosine 1800.
(I'm strongly considering a separate 600watt "cheapo type" square wave inverter in the kitchen just for the microwave alone...otherwise the sudden drain of that sucker as somebody nukes a hot dog is liable to crash something. That in turn would let me run everything else on a Prosine 1000 or similar sub-1,200w quality inverter. Smaller inverters have less overhead, run colder and are otherwise kinda nice.)
Well the true sine inverters don't usually have a charger. And even if they did, they probably wouldn't have the battery temp monitoring that those solar controllers have...so far I haven't seen any inverter/charger with that feature, be it true sine or modified like a Trace or Heart.
So maybe what I need to search like hell for is a REALLY good AC-powered battery charger with "all the goodies" like the solar chargers provide. |
CoryDaneRTS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 7:41 am: | |
I agree, save up and find that inverter with a multi stage charger.
Xantrex/Trace has the 6024 (I have one originally made by Trace).
they have a monitoring system for the battery as well as the system.
When you plug in shore, the inverter will switch to grid(land) power. If the batts are low, the inverter charges them until full then stops. If you have a load larger than the grid can supply, the inverter will assist until the load drops and you don't need it. Then you are on Grid again.
That converter will survive till you save up the bucks.
If you use it in a park, put a load on the battery to keep the charge "controllable".
You can even put a timer on it to help prevent cooking the batts.
In the long run, you will love the inverter/charger.
There is a string called "Question for Bus People" February 22 that preceded this string and the content is very close to your problem. Take a look at it also for more ideas/explanations.
Good luck
cd |
Jerry Liebler
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 8:27 am: | |
It's a lot of work to install (properly) and not cheap but there isn't anything better than the Trace SW2512 or PS2512. You then route all your 120V through the inverter, making inverter power available on all circuits. You have 7200W surge capability regardless of shore or generator size (you program the limits). You have 3 stage charging with temperature monitoring and can have a remote that allows you to display almost all you'll ever want to know about your electrical system. Also put a contactor in to tie the house to the start battery so you can use that 300 amp or so alternator to charge the house and run the inverter while underway.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 12:56 pm: | |
Jerry: I agree completely w your suggestion here: I use the PS 2524 and the solenoid tie-together. Not that expensive either, comparatively. As I recall slightly over $1700 w/the remote digital panel and meters + the battery bank to drive it. Going this route eliminates a whole bunch of Rube Goldberg crap and adds good reliability and a degree of automation to everything.
Jim: It is my experience that it is the cheapo mod sine wave inverters that do not have charger sections and pass thru relays, not the sine wave models. I have used convertors and mod sign wave inverters in the past, supposedly the best of them. Unless you are doing things on the cheap, convertors aren't worth bringing home. There are a couple of good ones made but they are pricey for what your getting. A good high-tech battery charger is a much better investment. Same goes for these cheapo mod sine wave inverters; they may be fine to run your Palm Pilot or 19"tv but beyond that there utility ceases. Every catalog retailer in the country sells them "factory reconditioned to new"; that should tell u something about there reliability. |
Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 1:23 am: | |
The SW2512 and it's kin are modified sine, not true sine.
I need the real thing. |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 1:58 am: | |
You better go back and do some research. I'm not sure that they even make a 2500 in the SW series. I know they make a 4k(maybe its a 3.6) and 6k. The PS series does have a 2500. The SW series is sine wave, not modified, ergo, the SW. Likewise the PS series, Power Station, are sine wave. The U series and the DL series are mod sine wave, likewise the Heart Freedom is mod Sine Wave. Xantrex, which owns Trace, Heart, Prosine, make sine waves in the Trace and Prosine line, modifieds in the Trace and Heart line. Xantrex also makes PortaPower, Statpower, Coleman, Whistler, and about a 1000 brands, all mod sine wave. Vanner also makes a full line of inverters, from cheap and dirty to top of the line. |
Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 2:40 am: | |
Ah.
OK, I had pulled up the manual on the SW series from their site and searched on the word "sine". They don't say in there which.
OK, my bad. I genuinely appreciate the correction.
But...there's still an issue here.
Right, found the SW22512 at a marine shop for $1950:
http://store.wmjmarine.com/sw2512mc.html
We'll assume for a sec that I can find it $100 less as marine shops tend to be pricey (not confirmed yet in this case though).
There's also an accessory remote panel for $240:
http://store.wmjmarine.com/sswrc.html
Right. And the battery charge portion is a three-stage, with no battery temp sensor.
In contrast, a Prosine 1800(watt) with no charger runs about $1200 and comes complete with remote panel. A three-stage independent intelligent 30amp charger with accessory "smart controller" thingie runs less than $200 total for 75watt and a "four stage smart charger":
http://store.solar-electric.com/bach1.html
That's the DLS-75 with "IQ4".
That's...what, $600 less (ballpark)? And if one breaks, I can limp along with something lesser for a bit...the old "converter" at least briefly in the case of the charger, or a relatively cheapo inverter of a couple hundred watts for at least a laptop if the Prosine pukes and dies.
As a charger, is the SW2512 any better than the Iota? As an inverter, assuming 1800w is enough which I think it is, is the Prosine really "lesser"? |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 4:46 am: | |
the ability to live at a 10A PP and almost have everything avilable that most foks need 30A for is worth somthing.
Weather you visit the Provincials in Canada , (15A) or just prefer the older smaller pretty places that are so old 15A is IT ,
the ability to run an Air cond or your favorite toys could be invaluable.
AS is the ability to use a RV aircond underway from the engines alt.
Do it YOUR way,
FAST FRED |
Jerry Liebler
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 9:30 am: | |
Jim,Jim,
Keep searching. There are different sub models of the SW2512 and PS2512. Some of the sub models are packages with the remote and battery temperature sensor. Mine actually is a SW2512MC which included the remote panel and temperature sensor & I paid about $1600 a year or so ago. Mine came from a solar power dealer in Arizona but unfortunately(due to moving) I can't find the bill to give full contact info. The PS2512 is I'm told a slightly lower cost version that doesn't support selling power to the grid. The SW2512 can charge your house baterys with over 200 amps under full control, quite simply it's about the best battery charger going, not to mention the rest of the functions. As F. F. said I can live on a 15 amp power pole and start and run my air conditioners with the surge power coming from the battery. |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 1:23 pm: | |
Jim: 1st, Jerry is right, the SW is probably the best thing going, all things considered. There are a couple of other makes available that arguably exceed it, but they are almost prohibitive in cost for anyone w/good sense to buy. The PS is an RV version of the SW, primarily lacking the power sharing and grid selling features. It uses the same digital panels that the SW uses and is packaged in the same case. The Prosine is on a par w/the PS series but my experience in shopping is that you can't match the price of a PS with a Prosine.
I can't speak to the convertor or charger route, since I don't think much of the idea of using them as an alternative to an integrated pkg. such as the SW. I originally had a 7000 series MagnaTech in the Grumman to power the furnace while I built it. Worked ok, 50 amp, 3 stage charger. Initially, I used a Statpower 2000 inverter w/it. The arrangement was unsatisfactory to me. I bought a Trace 2500 U model and replaced them both and gave the MagnaTech to a friend w/a 5th wheel Wilderness, which is where they belong in my opinion. |
Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 7:34 pm: | |
Quoting Jerry:
"Mine actually is a SW2512MC which included the remote panel and temperature sensor & I paid about $1600 a year or so ago."
NOW we're talking! Thank you, seriously. That right there sounds killer at that price or close to it. |
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