| Author |
Message |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 8:20 pm: | |
Was watching a piece on Discovery Chanel that coverd filling tires with pure nitrogen instead of air. It was reported to greatly reduce corrosion/oxadation of the rubber (inside & out after permation) and reduce rim corrosion . It was reported to greatly reduce long term leak-down as the nitrogen was far less able to pass through the tire than than oxagen rich air.
Also mentioned was the nitrogen generator that was being market to garages (actual a filter). A smaller cheaper version would sure cut down on welding cost as a added benift.
The calm was that no negative effects were notice after years of trial (niltrogen filled tires) in the racing world.
Does anyone have first hand experience with this possible tire life extender technique; it may v prove economical to keep a set of tires for the 10 or 15 years it takes to wear them out in most conversions and R.V. and sunday driven collector cars. |
Tim Jones (Torquester)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 8:54 pm: | |
Hello Mr. Truthhunter, I am glad that you are seeking the truth in this matter. ;-)
I am not a tire expert but my exeprience in this matter is as follows:
When I was helping our NASCAR Late Model team I learned that the Nitrogen in the tires (which we were using) was mainly there to minimize (tire) diameter growth due to moisture absence as compared to compressed atmospheric air which contains water.
As the tire is heated by use, any moisture inside the tire expands more readily than an inert gas containing no moisture. The resultant increase in pressure from using compressed air will affect the tire diameter and contact patch.
While this effect did not really effect the life of the tire (because of its sort life span in a racing enviroment) it did effect the tread life of the tire by creating the correct contact patch. That being said, it does not effect the life of the tire core (side walls, bead, steel structure....or the parts of a tire that get re-used in a re-tread.
So....my opinion...Listen to the expert engineers of the manufacturing companies that build and rebuild the tires...in general...after 7 years pitch it.
hth, Tq |
gus causbie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:05 pm: | |
The large additional cost will not make any significant difference in tire life or performance.
Nitrogen is stored at VERY high pressures and if not carefully regulated could blow your tire off the wheel. |
Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:50 pm: | |
I used nitrogen in my dirt late model tires also, tires sitting around drew moisture this moisture in a racing tire is not good, when the temperature goes up so does the pressure in the tire from the expanding moisture, pressure and temperature are proportional temp goes up, pressure goes up, nitrogen being an inert gas, does not expand with temp like air, actually there is very little growth, like Tim said above stagger or tire diameter changing in a race car changes the weight distribution in the car, effecting handling. Nitrogen uses a special regulator, made just for nitrogen, make sure you use the correct one. I know we used a pressure relief valve in the tire that we set for a specific pressure, we used this hole in the rim while we purged the oxygen out of the tires we used a manifold to purge all four tires at once at a low pressure and flow, i know we didn't get all of the moisture out but it helped us a great deal we had an idea how much the tires were going to grow during the race, with air in the tires we would see the stagger(diameter) grow as much as 1 to 3 inches, which in racing is a killer when your chasing the track conditions all nite, its always nice having a known constant when dealing with tires, and nitrogen does a great job. Using nitrogen in racing was a secret for many years, we had to hide the tank in the trailer where no one would see it, but now they all know to use it........there was a thread on here about smart tire or doran which ever you prefer, my impression is this has to be a great tool for busing. You mentioned oxidation, well in air there is moisture and moisture is one of the causes of oxidation, removing it with nitrogen has to be beneficial. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 12:39 am: | |
Nitrogen should leak out a little faster than air since its Atomic number is 14 and Oxygen has an atomic number of 16. Nitrogen is a smaller molecule.
I doubt it would help the outside of the tire, but it should cut wheel corrosion by depriving the reaction of oxygen and water.
Check out this website for a tire coating that is supposed to protect from ozone. Should protect from UV also. http://www.usaled.com
Click on the TMI super pro black tire coating at the bottom of the page. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 12:42 am: | |
I forgot to add, the most important thing for tire life is to drive. Driving circulates oils in the rubber, preventing it from drying out. |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 4:11 pm: | |
Any improvement in wheel and tire life due to nitrogen inflation versus air is likely to be insignificant, particularly if the air has been properly dehumidified. That being said, it's hard to debate that removal of oxygen from the mix is beneficial.
However, I am very concerned by your idea that it may be "...economical to keep a set of tires for the 10 or 15 years it takes to wear them out..."
This ignores the fact that the vast majority of tire aging factors come from outside the tire/wheel assembly, not inside. Specifically, the air surrounding the outside of the tire is still going to be 19% oxygen and you will still get oxidation of the sidewalls, and, moreover, unless you cover the tires somehow, the outer sidewall will continue to be subject to ultraviolet degradation. Furthermore, anerobic chemcal processes within the tire itself will continue to degrade the tire.
For all these reasons, you can not reliably assume that merely removing oxygen from the tire inflation mixture will extend the shelf life of the tire beyond current recommendations (7 years). Perhaps extensive destructive testing can show otherwise, but until someone does it, I would not take the risk.
-Sean |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 11:43 pm: | |
I was at Costco a few days ago to get step son's tires balanced and rotated. They made the big pitch on the virtues of nitrogen, namely the pressure will be more constant, etc. I've been using nitrogen in microwave waveguides over 30 years. And it expands and contracts with temperature like most gases, inert or otherwise.
It is just a new marketing pitch with a high tech ring -- nitrogen to replace air in tires. That's like replacing the water on my brain with Jack Daniels. The cost difference is about the same.
Chuck Newman
Oroville, CA |
Vin (Billybonz)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 12:33 am: | |
After a quick search on the Net, this nitrogen tire issue has become quite the rage. The claim that nitrogen permeates through the tire slower than oxygen is because the nitrogen molecule is larger than an oxygen molecule.
The benefits are based on the fact that since there is less pressure loss, tires run cooler, last longer, increased fuel economy, better handling, etc. Of course if you keep your tires properly inflated with air, you will have the same results.
I guess a practical test would be to use a monitoring system and see how much the tire pressure increases from cold to running at highway speeds with plain old air and with nitrogen.
It seems we need a guinea pig.
Bones |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 2:44 am: | |
This is old stuff. The nitrogen vs. air thing was the hot topic more than 10 yrs ago and appears to have worked its way down to the amateur racers and bleeds eventually out to the public. The next thing we'll see the R/C modelers touting Nitrogen for their cars (Do they use pneumatic tires on the RC models?)
As stated above, moisture absorbs energy "better" than oxygen or nitrogen molecules because the bonds in a water molecule have more modes of movement or freedom to vibrate and thus absorb energy - quicker.
This is a transitory experience, since it's a matter of rate of absorbtion, not overall temperature. On the race track, with my open wheel Formula Atlantic, I can watch the tires change temperature as I exit a fast corner. As the tires cool down they lose the "shiny" look. The benefit of nitrogen, if any, is the tires won't change temperature as rapidly and therefore wont change size/footprint as much allowing me to either "tune" the suspension a little better or "tune" my driving a little closer to the limits of the car. You never "get there" with a bus (in fact you shouldn't even try for obvious reasons) and therefore the Nitrogen thing is, IMHO, a waste of time and effort for a converter.
Tire growth can be real critical to the size of the contact patch on a race car needing peak performance. I can't see where it would make a difference in a street tire that routinely runs at 2/3ds or less than the temperature of a fendered race car.
Onward and Upward
Marc Bourget |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 9:29 am: | |
If they make the claim that the Nitrogen molecule is smaller than an Oxygen molecule, their whole story is suspect. Oxygen molecules are larger than Nitrogen molecules, period. Nitrogen diffuses easier. If a writer cannot get basic facts like that correct he is not able to write with authority on matters of Physics and Chemistry and his story should be treated like all the magic stories. |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 9:57 am: | |
I personally, have designed a nitrogen filled shock for our cars. Something nobody else has done! These are not toy cars.
Ace |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 3:17 pm: | |
Ace,
I didn't know if they used pneumatic tires on RCs or not.
What I was trying to illustrate was the irony of "hobbyists" that won't fully develop skills or knowledge, they would rather throw more money at it, kinda senseless IMHO, but that's just an opinion.
I know shock designers, including one who got a $20M judgment against a Japanese Motorcycle Mfg., on a patent infringement. Another, Bob Sheaves, now an infrequent visitor to this BB, is a specialist in vehicle suspension and dynamics. He designed shocks for Jeep's SCORE factory team. We collaborated on manufacturing specialty shocks for the off-road racing crowd.
A shock for a RC might be a benefit, (I don't know, I've never looked at one closely) but I believe the market would be so small that the engineering and tooling cost sufficient to "do it right", something I am familiar with, would hardly be worth the benefit. I suspect the same case exists with pneumatic tires, but I would have to look at one of these model cars before I made a decision.
So, in summary, I don't know enough about RC tires or RC shocks and I admit it. I do know about the use of nitrogen in tires. I also know that MANY hobbyists across the spectrum of human interests waste the learning opportunity hobbies provide by taking rumor and innuendo over clear facts and logic. |
Gary Carter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 4:13 pm: | |
If not mistaken, I believe airliner tires are filled with nitrogen. The purpose is so they don't catch on fire. |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 8:06 pm: | |
Gary,
Agreed, but that's a different situation. There is a humongous amount of heat generated stopping an airliner from landing speeds above 135 Kts. The tires are made a small as possible and there's not that much area to give off heat. The Nitrogen is there to avoid rapid degradation due to the high heat, in addition to catching fire.
I can remember a friend ran the grade from Tehachipi to Bakersfield, coasting, out of gear. He said the speed "got up there" later admitted to over 100 mph, couldn't get it back into gear and by the time he got her stopped said you could "see" the shoes thru the drums. Maybe a situation like that warrants N2 in bus tires but who does that regularly?
Better things to spend your money on!, IMHO. |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 11:41 pm: | |
Ace and Susan had a good time at the late night Tank Seminar (aka Hang'em High) - sorry to those not in attendance but it was by invitation only - |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 5:07 pm: | |
Yes, nitrogen is believed to have a higher atomic weight than oxegen, however this does not mean it should leak out faster as the nitorogen gas molecules must be smaller than oxegen. That assumes the density is relative & constant state to the atomic weight regardless of the influencing enviroment. Their are other considerations that may be at play in the tire contament such as the reactivity to the tire compopunds (yes "inert" nitrogen can react with carbon componds-such as during the manufacture of kevlar like compounds) and as it permates and saturates the tire caseing, the nitrogen MAY act as a "exterior coating" the protects the outside against (permaintion from oxagen) oxidation of the ruber. I do not know if this is actual fact behind the Discovery Chanels report and am only making a guess. I was hoping a molecular chemist with good knowledge about the condtions at play might substainiate or dismiss the claims of potentaily extending tire. I do not expect that anyone has any 10 or 15 years of trials nitrogen filled Bus Tire in RV application to report on. It does not seem that charging a tire with nitrogen would be that expensive, even if one did not have the use of a nitrogen filter. The ultra violet breakdown process can be addressed by other economical means as sujested (covers when parked long term would also reduce solar heat gain)if the oxidation deteroration rate was reduceable with nitrogen fill.
I do thank those that related their experience in the Racing applications and will assume that no know bad consiquences were detected in this short term application. The hoped for long term use I am trying to make a educated guess on is for life extension beyound the seven years, which would prove very realivent to most coach conversions and to the few sitck'n'stapels that actual last beyound seven year tire expireation date. I am in my early forties and expect which means my expirey date should be beyound a set a new tires, maybe even four or five sets. |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 5:43 pm: | |
Truthhunter,
My understanding is the useful life of a tire is controlled by factors of greater magnatude than internal O-2 degradation, mainly UV degredation and the loss of oils from the body of the rubber.
As to molecular size. . .
The data I observed showed the atomic diameter of Oxygen (.06A) was about 8.5 times larger than Nitrogen (.007A). I would attribute this to O, with 4 vs 2 electrons in the outer shell, filling the outer (valence) shell more than N. Additionally, N-N molecule has a triple bond, where the O-O molecule has a double bond. This would also argue for a larger O-O molecule and a more inert N-N molecule. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any dimensional data on their molecular sizes. |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 7:34 pm: | |
The size of a atom is not the only factor that determines the size of a molecule or how multipule molecules will interact to determine there "state of being"or density, which may be the most relative point to how fast O2 or N2 will leak out. The different gas molecules may interact with the tire shell in different ways as it permates under pressure. Think crystal latticework or electrostatic bonding as a crude example of what MAY be at work, IF the claim of slower leak down rate is possibley valide. When is anything just 4 bolts?
Now that IAN has repaired this thread (it seems the thread from payton place or Erma Bombeck or days of our lives had gotten mix in with this one, I bet that realy dampens meaningful conremplation) Perhaps your educated memory referanceing and my speculated imaginattive conjecture will pull in some more relavence speculations to help us valadate or dismiss the claims about the virtues of nitrogen filled tires. I new we could work together to cipher towards truth. Onward no matter if you know the direction, it will always lead to greater understanding once the belief falls out of the path! |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 8:05 pm: | |
Looking back to the reference on Atomic weight and size or "density" for this discussion. While my vision is not of suficent resolution to measure the actual size of a single atom, it seems that the higher the Atomic wieght the less the "density" A cubic foot of lead weighs more than a cubic foot of hydrogen under the same conditions (tempature/pressure)even though thier is creater atomic mass or substance in the lead atom. The atomic theory also sugest varing spaces with the nucleus, shell and between atoms that may be influenced by properties (or substances) lossly nicknamed stange/true/up/down/muion/po-on/dark matter and just about anything that would get one grant money to explore thier hypothisis. |
Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 2:53 pm: | |
Message for Marc Bourget,
I owe you an apology, Marc. When in Florida, I must have given you the incorrect impression that it was an acceptable thing to come on this bulletin board system to take conversations way off topic, insult the intelligence levels of BNO viewers by subjugating us to your MENSA ideals and to inappropriately attempt to enlighten those here of why some people do and do not post messages on the bbs anymore.
Please let me rectify those incorrect impressions with which I left you.
First, you, just like everyone else, are quite welcome to come to BNO to post your views about the subject matter of the thread. Marc, that means you must read a message as it relates to the thread and speak directly to the thread topic.
Next, by intentionally sensationalizing your language skills and thought processes to a level which stands away and apart from all others in order to make us believe you are of a superior intellect is absolutely not necessary. Let's keep our eye on the ball, Marc. We're a bunch of ordinary guys and gals who, on a very broad social level, have a commonality in the hobby, which we all enjoy to varying degrees with varying skill levels, and who all happen to congregate here on BNO. Loosen up: if you want to fit in; fit.
Lastly, it is absolutely none of your business to expound upon why people come and go from this bulletin board system, nor is it your place to say so here. Especially since you are wrong.
People do not stay away from this bulletin board system. I can't remember when the last time I reported the number of registered users, but I know it was somewhere in the 400s. Today, BNO has 720 registered users. Therefore your theory is ineffectual.
You are living in a dream world if you think that people don't post here because of anything you or Ace, Fred, the Tooth Faerie or anybody else argue about here and, frankly, I'm insulted that any of you think you should be able to come on to this bulletin board system and puke all over it, as is becoming more and more evident, while I just stupidly come along and clean up your messes. If anyone has told you that they don't come here because of things that are said in anger, they're rationalizing to you, you're mis-hearing them or they are simply copping out. This is the cleanest, most heavily content edited board you're ever likely to see and most people in the hobby have been here from the beginning and stay here to read every word - even my purported competition.
Most people with a micro-grain of intelligence know that the diatribe that fills some threads is going to disappear and they will never be subjected to it again in a thread. It's my own damnable fault that I don't read every single message to eliminate the offending posts as they appear, but I have a life outside this great hobby.
And Marc, you shall not mention someone else's wife on this bulletin board again; not mine, not anyone's. Period.
Again, welcome to BNO's BBS. We welcome comments from everyone who wishes to partake in bus related (and sometimes off-topic) conversations in a pleasant, family oriented space where you don't have to look at advertising every time you click your mouse. And where you will no longer have to shake your head in disgust from personal attacks of any kind by any viewers about any topic. Have I made myself in any way unclear Marc?
Have a nice day.
Ian Giffin
www.busnut.com
PS. The preceding needs no answer from you, Marc. My last question to you is rhetorical. If you wish to respond, please do on your own board at your own expense. Thank you. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 3:37 pm: | |
I@n-
I deeply resent being called the "Tooth Faerie" and
would appreciate a prompt, sincere apology.
(Editor's Note: Please accept his prompt and sincere apology for calling you the "Tooth Faerie"... I meant, "John that Tooth Faerie") |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 5:35 pm: | |
So Marc if molecular oxegen is a double bound (is that O2) and Nitrogen molecule is a triple bound (is that N3) does that mean 3 atoms of nitogen form a single molecule? Not that I am familar with molecular dimensions but perhaps you can do the math for and give a expected molecule size for each. |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 7:37 pm: | |
Folks,
I doubt very seriously that molecular migration through the rubber is even measurable, let alone any kind of factor here.
To put this to rest, molecular oxygen (O2) and molecular nitrogen (N2) are so close to each other in diameter that they can not be easily sieved. Notwithstanding Mr. Fessenden's speculation (based on atomic number), nitrogen is, indeed, a very slightly larger molecule, with a critical molecular diameter of around 3.0 Angstroms, while oxygen has a critical molecular diameter of around 2.9 Angstroms.
At those diameters, leakage around the valve seals and the bead seats, which involve passages on the close order of tens or even hundreds of Angstroms, will admit both molecules almost equally and would far overshadow any molecular migration through the materials.
Again, the purported benefits of nitrogen-only inflation have to do with reducing oxidation inside the wheel assembly, the beneficial effects of which are highly debatable.
Removing the water vapor from the inflation mixture has measurable benefits all the way around, and I suggest that most of the observed benefit of so-called nitrogen inflation has to do with the absence of atmospheric moisture.
-Sean
(aka the Wicked Witch of the West, since "Tooth Faerie" is already taken) |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 9:06 pm: | |
For what its worth - Air = 78+ % Nitrogen anyway - at best we're taking about removing the 21% Oxygen thats left plus some argon and other trace elements - Hardly seams worth it - and there's the problem of maintaining the proper pressures while on the road -
Niles |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 10:26 pm: | |
Ian,
As a newbie on the board I am surely pleased with your answer. It is both eloquent and clear. I thought I was pretty good with the language but I'm nowhere near your league!
I have found a few of these superior attitudes on the Jaguar BB also and they are irritating.
Thanks, it was greatly needed. |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 10:41 pm: | |
Hello
Thank you Ian.
You are 100% gentleman, and some have something to learn from your excellent example.
Things were getting far too warm in here...
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 11:40 pm: | |
Scrolling on down then, the consences would be the claim is perhaps loosely based on fact, very loosely (hard to imagine). Guess if I need better I will just have to fill up and obsever for the next 10 or 15 years. Best get a better chair as this could be much longer than the paint on the wall took last week. |
gillig-dan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 8:56 am: | |
Off Topic...
Gusc,
What Jag board do you follow?
I have a '64 XKE OTS basket case, project that is on hold for a few years. The bus is giving a nice return on my efforts right now; it's something the whole family can use.
Gillig-Dan |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 7:06 pm: | |
Gillig-Dan,
XJ6 BB. I haven't been there for a while, too busy with other projects. The '84 XJ6 is in good shape except for a few minor items, just haven't gotten up the nerve to drive it very far yet!
Love those XKEs. I also love the XK-140. My problem is I love too many of them! Never had the nerve to do a basket case, very intimidating. I wish you well.
The XJ6 belongs to my wife and has a pretty high priority!
I'm trying to sell my Navion airplane and then buy a bus conversion, too old to do one myself. Anyway, I have two fire trucks and three vintage trucks to complete plus a TR4 to put back together after the paint dries. |
Jim G. - RTS-II
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 2:34 am: | |
Ian.
I am guessing your "message" was "tongue-in-cheek" or about 24 days too soon or actually not from you. Jim G. - Ohio |
pacobell
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:18 am: | |
Damn, Ian, I hope you feel better. That's about the biggest load of crap I've seen come out of you in a few years.
With all due respect to you, the owner of this board, you were way out of line.
I took the liberty of reading back through all of Marc's posts in this thread, and even did a search through the last 15 days of his posts. At no point did he mention your wife, or anyone else's wife that I can find.
Nor did I see any place in those posts where he even mentions reasons for people leaving the boards. In fact, the only place I see any of that is on another, unrelated thread, where your good buddy Ace makes exactly those claims. Funny, I don't see a public thrashing of him for his comments.
Further, regarding people leaving this board, you are simply wrong. I can name at least a dozen friends who no longer support BNO, and every one of them say it's because of you, not posters like Marc, which is the reason they left.
Just because you have 720 registered users, does not mean you have that many readers. Do you really think that when a registered user finally decides he's had enough of this crap and leaves that he's going to take the time to unregister?
Over the years I've come to believe that you tend to skew your sites numbers to make you look good. Your page hits are one example you often throw out. Now this. Come down to reality. No body really gives a crap how many billions of hits you have or how many people are registered. This isn't McDonalds!
And lastly, you accused Marc of dragging the thread off topic. It appears he strayed from nitrogen in tires to nitrogen in shock absorbers. How the hell is that dragging off topic? As opposed to your two other buddies JTNG and TD, who have yet to contribute a valid bus related comment to any thread, or you allowing them to post (or did you who actually posted it?) lewd and disgusting photos of women on your board. Now that's real bus related and "family oriented space"!
You have a very high opinion of yourself, as evidenced by this latest load of crap. The "purported competition", indeed. As if MAK or any other board has a need to be in competition with you or anyone else. This isn't a freaking game, and it's sure as hell not a business. Get over yourself. You are not a god, contrary to the illsighted belief of many of your followers. You own a bulletin board for crying out loud. And a mediocre one at that. Big whoopin deal!
Marc's posts do not necessarily come off as insulting or having some "MENSA ideal" (whatever the hell that is) as you imply in your rude diatribe. It's obvious he has a considerable amount of knowledge and life experience, and is very eager to share it, but for the most part, I've not found them to be overbearing, albeit long winded, and have yet to find fault in his accuracy though I admit I only read threads that are of interest to me.
I know this message won't stay long on your golden site and you'll get all upset because someone had the nerve to come on your playground and give you your propers. That's fine. After all, it is your playground. However, you owe Marc a public apology and removal of that crap you dealt him above.
pacobell |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:11 am: | |
Pacobell and Jim G.,
Has it not occurred to you that,perhaps, the posts to which Ian is referring have already been removed from the board?
It's a bit presumptuous to come in to a discussion like this two weeks or so late and criticize the moderator for something you know nothing about.
I can assure you, the posts to which Ian refers were definitely here. He carefully excised all parts of both the original posts and any replies that referenced the, ahem, offending matter.
I happen to like Marc and think that he often makes valuable contributions to many discussions. However, the content of this specific discussion had gotten waaay off-topic and into, shall we say, personal issues which were absolutely inappropriate here.
Ian did the right thing by editing them out. And while his response to Marc is perhaps a bit strong, it, too, was appropriate to the heat of the discussion, none of which is now visible.
So, please, give Ian a break -- his "job" is hard enough without people second-guessing him.
-Sean |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:17 am: | |
Paco - this thread has been drastically edited - you came a little late to the party and therefore do not have all the pertinent information - Ian could have just deleted it but evidently he tried to keep the parts that dealt with the topic - he might wish he hadn't now - Niles |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 2:38 pm: | |
Whew!, Pacobell, Strong letter to follow?
Pacobell's post, carefully read, highlights the purpose behind the one public comment I'll make on Ian's post.
Ian admonishes me not to speak of his wife or any other. I've never spoken of Maisie, except in an e-mail to Ian in which I complimented him for his honor and devotion to her. The other wife was mentioned by reference, and then only in a considerate or protective way.
I believe, by removing the earlier posts yet leaving that portion of his comment for public review, Ian infers I said something slanderous and defamatory about his and other wives.
The rest of his post, when carefully read, speaks for itself. We're both entitled to our opinions and are responsible for their consequences.
Onward and Upward |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:00 pm: | |
Pacobell or whoever you are, I stated on another unrelated thread that certain types of postings drives OTHERS away from BB's, and in no way did I mention any names. There IS a difference from what I stated and what Marc stated earlier which by the way has been deleted! Maybe you need to check in here more often before flying off the handle!
As for being I@N's good buddy? Well there your wrong! I met IAN and yes we are friends thru this board only and when we see each other at a bus rally. Are we buddies? Well, let me say that I've never been fishing with him or even out to dinner with him and his wife, nor have I been over to his house to just tinker. Isn't that what buddies do? You make the call since your doing the talking!
As for your response to I@N, your way out of line and if it were left up to me, which it isn't, I would do to you what was done to me years and years ago. I was BANNED from using this site, which brings up another point. IF you think so little about this site and how it is run, and by whom, simply put, why do you come here? It's really a very easy question!
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