| Author | Message | ||
| Jack Gregg (Jackinkc)
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My backup camera needs 12 DC REGULATED power. I was going to use a regulated transformer to draw 110v from the inverter but then I found these do-hickeys. 12v Pos Reg 1 Amp Will they do the trick? Can I just input 12v DC unregulated (range about 11-13) and it will output 12v? Does it make any difference if I use positive regulated or negative regulated? One amp should be plenty, right? Any idea what the difference between 7812T and 7812K is? thanks, Jack | ||
| David Dickens (Debdav)
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The charging system on a vehicle is capable of providing voltage at up to approximately 14.5 VDC. If your camera is capable of running on that high of voltage - no worries. You do not need a regulator. The regulator that you are describing will take 12 VDC alternating current (AC) and turn it into direct current (DC). Your vehicle batteries already are producing DC. | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
If you want to do it right, you really should use a regulated DC to DC converter. Look here: http://www.powerstream.com/dcdc.htm You neglected to state if you're trying to go from 24V to 12V, or just 12V to 12V... That page has both types of regulated power supplies... I'll be using them in my own designs as well... Hope this is what you're looking for. -Kevin | ||
| David Dickens (Debdav)
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Sorry - I just reread. The regulator you are describing will take 12 VAC - alternating current (AC) and turn it into direct current (DC). My bad. | ||
| David Dickens (Debdav)
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The DC - DC convertors are great for regulating electricity for computers and other microprocessor equipment where exact, steady power is required. I fail to see the need of this expense for a backup camera. | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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It depends entirely on how tolerant the camera is of overvoltage.... It's a suggestion, not a finality.  -Kevin | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
how about pluging one of those little 12 volt chargers...like cell phones use | ||
| CoryDane RTSII Rating: N/A |
The cell phone chargers plug into 12v but the battery usually sees 6vdc, depending on the battery. good thought though 2D I was lucky enough to get hold of a couple of power regulating 12v dc power supplies that were used in their former life in Chip Placing Machines. you ever see those machines that pick up an electronic chip then whip it onto the card, all in seconds with a fully loaded card moving down the conveyor, thats the machine. I have found the power supply to be endlessly useful for all kinds of misc projects. If you read the little label or look into the instruction manuals, you will find that the electronics of today have a strict limit of high and low voltage limits. The old vacuum tube days allowed a lot of fluctuation with little or no decay. (I can recall an old Tube type CB radio I had and when I needed a watt or so more, I could use a variable transformer to tweek it up. Those tubes took the abuse and never failed. Today, these integrated circuits are unforgiving and will fail. Also failure due to the wrong voltage voids all warrentees, something to think about. cd | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
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Does your back up camera really require regulated DC or is it an engineering dodge or prank intended to let their stuff live longer? Our 12 VDC B&W 6" TV works well all the way from 15.0 VDC (would not recommend any higher) all the way down to 10.5 VDC. Unless sized correctly, more of a chance of low voltage damage rather than hi voltage damage using too small wire diameter. Good luck. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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Guys, the item that Greg found is, contrary to many of your seemingly uninformed opinions, quite the correct item to use. In the industry it is known as a 7812 regulator, it is well known, extremely common, extremely simple to use, extremely good at what it does, and you find millions of them in everything from computers to electronically controlled toasters. Myth buster: (1) It does NOT "take 12 VDC alternating current (AC) and turn it into direct current (DC)" (2) It is NOT a "DC - DC convertor" HERE'S WHAT IT IS: It is a three terminal DC regulator, the wires are: Input Ground Output It will accept any voltage in from 13 volts to 35 volts on the input wire, and provide a regulated 12 volts on the output wire. It will protect the power input from a shorted output, and it will protect itself from overheating if you try to draw too much current from it. It will absolutely protect a 12 volt camera from overvoltage. MacGyver is correct that many cameras are tolerant of overvoltage and it may not be needed. And his idea of a DC to DC converter is fine but it's a big overkill. DC to DC converters are normally used when you both need to convert a voltage and isolate it. The regulator we're talking about does not isolate, but since the camera is likely grounded anyway (and even if it wasn't) it makes no difference- isolation is really not necessary in this application. The only thing that you must know to use the little 7812 regulator is that it requires a .1 mfd capacitor to be hooked physically near the regulator, between it's input and ground, and another one to be hooked between it's output and ground. These are to keep it stable. Everyone here is correct about the 14.5 volts probably being no biggie to a camera. But what you're forgetting is all the spike pulses of voltage that DO exist in a bus system that can get up to many volts higher than 14.5, generated from solenoids, motors, and all of the noisy things that busses contain. It's these spikes that you should be worrying about, not the 14.5 volts (that said, I did have one camera that was rated at 12 volts that poofed on a 14.5 bus system when my converter started it's equalizing routine) Bottom line: I would definitely use the 7812 regulator. I use exactly this on my camera, for the simple reaason that it costs a whopping 50 cents and the two capacitors won't cost half of that, and less than a dollar will absolutely insure that any overvolatage won't get to your expensive camera and poof it. Here- I've drawn you a circuit as to how to hook it up. Note that the metal on the regulator is also hooked to the center pin and to ground, so you can simply bolt it to a chassis for the ground if that is something you want to do... http://www.heartmagic.com/7812.jpg . | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
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Thanks Gary for the clarification. Thanks Gary for the clarification. CROWNS FOREVER!!! CROWNS FOREVER!! | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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I wasn't suggesting that my solution was the best, just that it would insure the camera wouldn't get sloshed with overvoltages... mainly, as Gary pointed out, from spikes and noise found on DC "automotive" supply sources... And was definitely meant to be overkill. I guess you could say I'm one of those guys that tends to "over engineer" everything... I just don't like second guessing something I've done if I can help it. The original solution, provided by this thread's author would most likely be sufficient for this particular application. Yes. But... On the flip side of this... What else would require a regulated power supply that could draw off the supplies I suggested? I don't think I suggested that the supply could only be used to supply ONE device.... ;) -Kevin | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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I have Qusetion Gary What is the direction for the .1 mfd capacitor I dont see it on your diagram. Also will it work on less then 12 volts? Im going to build one tomorrow if radio shack has the parts. Thanks Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Abajaba Rating: N/A |
Brian: I can answer the question on the capacitor. The capacitor is non polarized so it shouldn't matter. As to whether it would work on less than 12 volts, the output will be about 1.0 to 1.5 volts below the input voltage until the input gets to the specified minimum voltage, then it will lock onto the 12 volts and stay there until the input drops below the regulation threshold. It is a good way to protect the camera and about the only thing that I might add would be a zener on the input side of the regulator rated at 30 volts or there abouts. The zener should have a high wattage rating of at least one watt or so. That should eat up the REAL BIG spikes that are coming down the line to the regulator. Abajaba | ||
| Jack Gregg (Jackinkc)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the expert advice and discussion. I assume from the discussion that the danger of damage to the camera is only from over voltage. I assume that if I input only 11 vdc to the regulator that it will deliver 11 vdc to the camera. This looks like a simple & cheap way to protect a variety of electronic devices. I use a center tap & relays to get 12 vdc for toad lights but I wonder why I could not use these cheap regulators? Thanks again for the help. Jack | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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Brian, as Abajaba says, the .1 capacitors have no ploarity. Purchase a ceramic or a monolithic capacitor that is intended for bypass. Get one with about a 50 volt or higher rating and you won't have any trouble at all. Another way to think of what happens when the regulator gets less than 12 volts is to look at it this way- it has to have about 1 to 1.5 volts across it to do it's job. So to get 12 volts out, the input must be at least 13 to 13.5 If you have for example only 10 volts coming in, you'd only get 8.5 to 9 out of it. But once the input gets up to 13 or so, the output will stick at 12 as the input goes higher and higher. A zener is an ok idea but if a big spike comes down that kicks it in, and that spike has any energy to it at all, it will kill the zener and turn it into a dead short unless you have other stuff in front of it (like an inductor or resistance of some sort or even a fast fuse) to limit current. It's an ok idea but now you've just gotten into electronic design and it could get hairy. Still, not a bad idea though probably not necessary in a bus environment. I've never needed one. If you want to do a zener thing, the best part to use is called a transorb. The part number would be something like 1.5ke30ca This is a specialized non-polarized zener that is intended just for this purpose. We used to use transorbs in a microfilm product that lived in a horribly noisy environment. Couldn't keep the power supply from blowing. (It wasn't our design and we weren't allowed to redesign it by the customer) We finally stuck a transorb across the input and from thenm on, every time a supply would normally have blown, the transorb shorted and blew the fuse. Repair costs went waaay down... | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
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Gary, I've been using a 7805 in a similar setup for use with LED's. Saves all of the worry about a resistor overheating and starting a fire. A small value resistor (5K ohm) can be paralleled to drop the voltage to the perfect 3.2 volts for the LED, but it's not really necessary. Try using Sprague Corp. for a supplier @ $.90 cents rather than Radio Shack's rapacious prices. ...JJ | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
OK Gary, I think I understand what you are saying. Still sounds like Star Ship science however. Help me out here. What happens if the average voltage just hangs around 12.0 due to whatever reason. Will the regulator thing work? Or, will it not work until it "sees" about 13.0 volts like mentioned? Does this then imply that the gadget will NOT... ...work if the system is NOT charging like when the coach is just sitting, particularily like for a couple of weeks... ..with the chassis voltage just hanging around just above 12.0 volts? Would this circuit be considered to be "house" or "chassis"? I define "house" as being the RV portion of the coach with all the related wiring and systems to such... ..and the "chassis" is being the frame, body and running gear, mill, tranny, brakes and related wiring and stuff. Reason I ask is that I do not know. Me for one would kinda consider a back up camera to be more of a "chassis" system... ...rather than part of the coach system, which may also imply that after sitting for awhile, the "chassis" voltage may... ...stabilize at a point below the threshhold of the regulating ability of the regulator. Or...most likely I have missed something... ...here very basic and I do not understand. Anyway, I do understand (I think) the need to protect the more sensitive stuff. CROWNS FOREVER!!! | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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More Qusetions for Gary or Abajaba I built one of the regulator things today , with 13.6 volt going in it only shows 11.92 volts out . Is it my meter? Its Snap On's verson of the fluke type And reads close to the 2 anolog 24 and 12 volt gauges in my dash. Or could the 7812 regulator be bad? Will it work with out the capacitors also? Im going to use it on the 12 Volt input on my tach. So I dont smoke it if I screw up and hook 24 volts to it. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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Henry, if you out in an absolute 12 volts you'll get something like 10.5 to 11 out. This is usually quite ok for any camera. Lower won't hurt. Brian, your meter is probably fine. 11.92 is quite close to 12 and the 7812 regulators are never calibrated exactly at 12, that's why they're so inexpensive. You can buy precision ones but there's no reason. If you look at a data sheet, you'll find that yours is well within spec, and there's nothing to worry about at all. If you use it without the capacitors, it "may" work fine. But the hit is that without the caps, the 7812 being a high gain device internally, can go into oscillation. This would mean that you might not even know, but it could be putting out lots of RF interference and also getting a lot hotter than it should. It's best to always use the caps and not try it without.... just one of the basic rules of good electronic design.... Cheers | ||
| Abajaba Rating: N/A |
11.92 volts output is well within the specification range on a 7812. That regulator is within 8 / 100 of a volt of the specified output and that is real good. The 5% range would be 11.4 to 12.6 volts. The capacitors on the input and the output are just about required. If there is no bypass on the input and output the device could start to oscillate and who knows what the output voltage would look like at that point. The capacitors are inexpensive to install but may save your expensive tachometer. There is an old electronic technician corollary that goes along the lines of, "A $250.00 picture tube will self destruct to protect a 25 cent fuse." | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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Ok thanks guys then its working just fine . Now well we are talking electronics. Will a 300 AMP shunt I want for a amp meter carry the start amps when I start the bus If I put it up front buy the batts? Or can I run the wires 40' to the gauge and have it still read ok if I put it on the lead comming off alt on the rear off my bus? Thanks Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Brian: It is asking a lot of a measuring system to be accurate at one amp and also a thousand amps. It is not usually necessary to measure the starter current unless you are checking the starter. Most busses have a cable to the front terminal panel where almost all battery drain originates. If you put the shunt in this cable, you will have short lead wires. If you are using a standard 50 millivolt shunt you can have significant error on long leads, but they can be ordered calibrated with whatever lengh of lead wire you need. | ||
| Tim Strommen (Tim_strommen)
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Since everyone turned from Camera volatage regulation to high-current sensing, might I drop in a little snippet about a Honeywell current loop sensor (like a clamp ammeter that one would use with a multimeter). These are available with the ability to sense current from 1 Amp to 1000 Amps without being in the current flow. Instead it charges a small electric coil around the primary wire you want to measure current on, and the current flowing through the primary wire displaces the magnetic field in the coil winding. These sensors create a current reading, which if you put a resistor across the sensors terminals and use a volt meter or A/D converter can read a voltage that can be turned into a Amp measurement (with simple math). www.grainger.com had these last I checked. Honeywell has data sheets on their website for more information. Anyone up for a home-made microprocessor controled A/C Genset with automatic load compensation? Cheers! Tim | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
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I try to obey....it is difficult....intermix hot, stable and full power available...Maximum Warp Speed at your orders, Captain. CROWN FOREVER!! | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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Stan, I wish my bus had a seperat wire from the Alt. but it only goes to the starter. And then a 0000 cable runs to the front. I would like to have a 300 amp on the alt side but that would req running 45 to 50 foot of leads from the shunt to the dash. I guess I will need to see if I can order on that way I want a dash mounted gauge . A digital one would be nice also. I plan on using my invetrer to run the AC going down the road and woild like to see how hard Im working the alt. Putting one on the batts will not work power comes off from the alt side some at the rear some up front I would not have all the amps used going to and from the batts and it would only show if the batt are charging . Tim I like the idea of the current loop but the simple math to convert to amps I would have to take off my shoes and that to hard when driving. And I thought the camera thing was answered so I went a differnt way. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Brian: Sorry I misunderstood your requirement. I thought you wanted to measure battery current since you can't measure starter current from the alternator (not running - no output). So that leaves you with a calibrated setup. In the early fifties some busses used a shunt at the back and a ammeter in the dash. DC clamps have been common for quite a few years now. I have one made in the far east that cost about $75.00. Common DC clamps have two ranges and output 200 millivolts at full scale. This can be read on almost any digital meter (even a Harbor Freight $7.99) directly in amps. To use a clamp at the rear of the bus with 40 foot leads you would have the same problem as with a shunt. The meter vould have to be calibtated to compensate for the voltage drop in the lead wires. | ||
| Abajaba Rating: N/A |
How about putting a shunt in the line near the battery or the alternator. The output of that is put into a high input impedance differential amplifier. The output of this could be set up as a current loop output. This would go to the ammeter on the dash and it can be calibrated. Another option is to make the output of the amplifier a low impedance voltage output and on the dash put a digital voltmeter with a high impedance input. Run some 18 or 16 gauge wire to the dash from the amplifier and you should have a good setup. The voltmeter or the amplifier could be calibrated to give a good reading on the dash. An advantage to either one of these is that you are still able to read both positive and negative current flows. The high current path is not any longer than it was before and the only addition to the high current path is the shunt. Just keep both inputs to the dash mounted meter isolated from ground unless you are using the chassis as part of your return circuit. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Abajaba: I don't think Brian knows how to design or build a differential amp. | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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The Differential amplifier could work But I would have to have a way to calibrate it Then I need a other meter in the rear to calibrate it . But then I would need to build one first I have no idea what or how. I think If I can order a shunt calibrated to the 50' leads would work if I can order them that way. The DC clamp sounds like the same problem with the long leads. The other option would be to run the alt charge wire to the front to the batts but then I would need for 300 amps a large cable. This is getting harder then I thought to do. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Just use a separate, chargeable12v battery large enough to power the camera and charge the battery once in a while. It shouldn't take a very large battery. I used to have this system on an old airplane to power the radio and lights. I usually didn't need to charge the battery more often than weekly and less than that if I didn't use the lights. | ||
| Abajaba Rating: N/A |
Yeah Brian, I have been known to over complicate things in the design phase. That is normally followed by some thinking, some more thinking, HEY I have an I...., never mind, some more thinking, maybe a little more thinking and then an idea comes up and smacks me right in the kisser. Right now I am about at the "HEY I have an I....." stage. Something is brewing that might work for this purpose. Let me keep thinking and I might come up with something that is reasonable to do. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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Brian, I think you can run long leads off of a shunt quite a distance with no appreciable error. It requires that the leads connect to nothing but a millivolt meter and that they are a twisted pair; do not ground them at any point. We are using a pair of 500 amp shunts in our 4106 to feed information to our Link 2000. Since we have a 12 volt system, we have as much current as you will normally see used by the starter. The shunts are 50 millivolts, or 10 amps per millivolt and the starter only draws 400 amps in moderate weather. A 24 volt system will be much lower. Our coach has everything run through the shunts; you just want to make sure that the battery cables running to the starter do not have to be much longer than factory to include the shunt. If you want a gauge, why don't you set up your battery monitor where you can see it from the driver's seat? You'll need one anyway, and if you do that, you will not have any other need for a voltmeter or ammeter on the dash. Good luck on your setup. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Tom: if you have a very high impedance input meter, which you Link 2000 probably is you will greatly reduse the error. Have you done an actual test at 500 amps to see what the error is. You have an interesting approach which may be the answer. Even a 50 microamp movement, which is too sensitive to use in a vehicle, would cause considerable error. Using the more common ruggedized movements doesn't work I haven't bought any digital panel meters with high impedance input for many years but they were quite expensive. If you already have one as part of another system, them by all means use it. Most people aren't looking for absolute numbers but just a good indication of what is going on. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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Hi, Stan. I don't have any idea how hard it would be to find a meter movement that would give good results with a minimum of fuss. We wanted the Link for our house batteries, so it seemed natural to use it for everything else. By the way, we average under 1/2 of retail on these products from eBay, so the prices don't give me as many fits as they might. For someone not used to buying in an auction, this is going to be more difficult. A power meter is still worth the cost. If a person did use a 50 microamp movement that could have the zero set to mid scale and it had 50 ohms resistance, then only 1.25 millivolts would be required to swing the needle through 1/2 scale. In other words, if the meter circuit total resistance didn't exceed 2,000 ohms, it looks like it would work. All the above depends on my math being right, so it should be double checked before relying on it. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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I send a E mail to Stewartwarner . The reply was: Sorry we have nothing in a 300 amp meter . Ok I know thats wrong so I called them today and they are the most the most unhelpful people I ever talked to or tryed get any info about what they sell. After I twisted the techs arm they do have a 300 amp gauge and a shunt . But the tech support guy did not know how long the leads can be ?? He said it comes in the instructions after you buy it . Say what!! I have to buy it before I know it will work. I had to realy push him to look up the instructions and he came back with I would need #4 cable for 46 feet. Now that sounds wrong way to big . So I guess back to the drawing board. I think I will not buy any Stewartwarner gauges any support after you buy it sucks and they dont care to try to help you to buy any thing from them. I had the same problem asking them about my tach they dont realy care to help you and make you feal its your fault for buying from them in the 1st place. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Brian: The number four cable may be correct. i amy not have gone into detail about lead length but voltage drop on the leads is a function of the wire size, wire length (in your case 92') and the load. The amount of current required to move the meter full scale is the load. Most mechanical meters used in vehicles require a relatively high current in order to make the meter more resistant to shock and vibration. This creates a voltage drop that is significant when you are trying to measure some part of 200 millivolts. As Tom suggested, if you can find a high input impedance digital meter your error would likely be insignificant using a much smaller wire for leads. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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Brian, the leads used on the Link are all small wires other than to the shunt. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Abajaba Rating: N/A |
Unfortunately my BLAZING flash of insight has not happened yet. But the idea of using a shunt in the cable leads to develop a voltage when current flowing appears to be the right idea. I have looked in a catalog and the prices for a digital volt meter for panel mounting can be 35 dollars on up. They run on various dc voltages and have a number of different input ranges. Check digikey for panel meters. A lot of these would be able to read a negative voltage that would indicate a discharge if the shunt was placed in the correct point in circuit. These meters have a high impedance input and there is a differential input. You know, this is just about like I was originally thinking about only already packaged. 18 gauge wire from the shunt to the meter input would be good enough for these conditions as one is not looking to draw a lot of current through the lines. It eliminates the Stewart Warner requirement for 92 feet of #4 gauge wire. It might really work quite well. What does everyone think of this? The cost will be the panel meter and the shunt that goes in the cable near the battery. | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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Well, following this thread somewhat, it looks like you're trying to find a way to have a battery meter 50 feet away, right? I have this meter: http://shop.altenergystore.com/itemdesc~ic~ALRAMMETER%2D100A~eq~~Tp~.htm But since I don't actually have any way to convert my bus just yet, I haven't installed it, or anything else... but, that particular meter allows you to place it 50 feet away using 22AWG wire, or 150 feet away using 18AWG wire. It can use a 500 amp shunt if you desire... Keep in mind that this is an AMP meter, not a voltage meter... I would suspect a simple voltage meter would use the same wire sizes as this does for the length runs given... since power draw itself would be minimal... But I'm not an electronics engineer... I just fiddle with things until they work. Cheers! -Mac | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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snip" Keep in mind that this is an AMP meter, not a voltage meter". I believe more correctly is that it is a volt meter, calibrated to indicate amps. It is actually reading the voltage dropped across the 500 amp shunt. Probably in the range of 50 millivolts for 500 amps of current flow in the shunt. Richard | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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What ever it is I will check them out tomorrow and see if they have a 300 to 500 amp shunt And if it reads AMPS from 50 feet away I will be happy. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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snip "Amp meters measure current with a 100A/100mV shunt." This is the information from the meter technical description and what it means is that with 100 Amps flowing thru the shunt, you will have 100 milli-VOLTS. sO it really is a voltmeter calibrated to read amps. Richard | ||
| ashoksonambekar
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I want to start my disel generator with the self starting button which requires 12 volts 100 Ah car battery, but the manufacture says that the battery should be near the disel generator. However, I want to utilise the invertor battery 12 volts { 2 nos. }The invertor is located about 60 feet from the generator. So will it do ? pl. let me know whether the self startor of the disel generator will get a sufficient current from the battery if it is kept away 50 feet . | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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No. The generator starter draws hundreds of amps when activated, and if the battery is not "close" to the starter, the wires between will drop too much voltage, get hot, and the starter will either not work or burn out. The only way to make it work is to increase wire diameter, but 60 feet would require wire probably 2 inches diameter in cross section... totally impractical. Same for an inverter, it needs to be close to a battery for the same reason although it ~is~ possible to run really large wire for 60 feet to run ~some~ inverters, if they are not too large in capacity. Probably best to use two separate batteries... | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
For folks that worry about Overvoltaging equippment , the cheapest insurance is just to be SURE its off during engine starting. FAST FRED |