| Author | Message | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
I have the converter out of my bus and don't plan on using it. I saw a unit using a 100 amp house panel. I want to use both 12 volt lights and 110. also 12 volt exhaust fan in bath room. I also want to use an inverter. so can I tie all systems together or do they need each to be independant of each other? if any body has a schematic to acomplish this I would apreciate it. as of right now I use a smart charge battery charger from walmart to charge my batteries . I don't want to get over technical or over engineered I kind of like the K.I.S.S. style but safe. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
that's the way  ...anything you don't understand...RIP IT OUT...then...install something else that you don't understand | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
well i actualy understand the converter but it is old and not many breakers in it. So you gonna give me some insite on this or just verbaly abuse me I had already ripped it out a long time ago when I gutted it last year. Just want it to be right. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
I'm a terrible person ...huh ??? | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
I really hope you two guys are really good friends.... Either that or you should be married! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
Ron, Not sure where you are located or what your travel situation is, but I'd like to recommend you go to one of the many bus conversion rallies, where you will find more information about these subjects than anyone can even absorb in one weekend. There happens to be one coming up at the end of April, the MAK Bus Conversion Rally in Peach Springs, AZ. Several people knowledgable about all subjects electrical will be there. The short answer to your question is that the 12vdc and 120vac systems on your coach must be entirely separate, except at the point where dc voltage feeds into your inverter. -Sean | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Ron, there's a few ways to skin this cat. The most popular thing to do here seems to be to get a fairly big inverter of 2000watt or bigger that has it's own nice multi-stage battery charger and the ability to switch from supplying inverter/battery power to the coach's 110v plugs to genset or shore power 110v when that's available. It's got "autoswitching" inside. People typically spend $1500 or more (sometimes WAY more) on such single "all in one" units. You also have to choose based on how many volts on your house battery bank, 12 or 24 or sometimes 48v. And you have to decide which sort of AC current you want, "decent quality modified sine" is pretty good, can feed most things and has the highest possible DC-to-AC efficiency of conversion rate - a Trace "DR series" is a good example of this breed: http://store.yahoo.com/affordablesolar/627.html http://www.dependablesolarproducts.com/inverters/trace.shtml A DR putting out 1500w would be pretty minimal to supply the needs of the whole coach. You also have a problem with the AC wiring, it can't go through a 1500w inverter (needs 2400 dead minimum) so with the 1500 you have to run AC straight off the genset or shore power with it's own switches. Makes wiring kinda funky. And to really do it right with an inverter that can power everydamnthing (2400w or more), inverter costs go nuts - see also second link above for the higher-end variants. The Xantrex "SW" series inverters are similar except the "modified sine" is VERY high quality with a LOT of micro-steps between polarities, so many that they just call it "Sine Wave" (SW). These are more money. OK, let's stop a sec and define terms: AC juice coming off the utility grid jumps back and forth between polarities "smoothly" - when graphed out you get a "sine wave" as it smoothly flows back and forth. It's like "health food for your electronics". "Square wave" inverters snap back and forth between polarities "instantly" - it's like McDonald's junk food on a bad day and some devices just refuse to run on it. "Modified sine" means it's still snapping but in "microsteps" between the two states so it ain't as harsh. The thing is though, there's NO standard for how many jumps. Just a few is pretty damn harsh. The Xantrex "SW" series has over 50 microsteps...pretty damn good...a lot of the "modified sine" cheapo inverters at Wally World or whatever cheap Chinese crap will have just one or two and will shorten the life of a good percentage of your 'lectrical stuff. Xantrex also sells the "Pure sine wave" series of "Prosine" inverters...if you're going to run a laser printer that's what you need, and some other things will run better. When sold powered at 2000w or above, these also come with their own battery chargers just like the SW and DR series, or there's smaller 1000 and 1800w without. On a per-watt basis these are pricey esp. when compared to the DR. Go google terms like "Prosine" and "DR2412" and "SW2512" to see what's up. --------------- Now, there's another way of skinning this cat entirely, and it's what I'm going to do in a situation a lot like yours. OK, you have an old bus conversion, no inverter, you have a genset wired to the internal wall plugs, you have (or in your case HAD) an old "battery boiler" single-stage "converter" charger, and you have a way of switching the internal wall plugs between shore power and genset power. Right. First thing you do is replace that "converter" with a standalone battery charger that takes AC power from genset or shore and turns it into multi-stage battery charging. I kinda like the looks of the Samlex units: http://www.donrowe.com/battery_charger/samlex_batterycharger_12v.html The 30amp oughta do @ $258 there. What's nice here is that they have three separate battery bank outputs so you can charge house and starter and even genset batteries each on their own voltage program, and it'll avoid over-feeding them separately. So much for the "converter". Then what I'm gonna do is, I'm going to run very heavy 12v cables to three places in my coach, one each side of the front and one in the back bedroom. Each of these will feed a small 600w true sine wave Samlex inverter at less than $300 each: http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/puresine.html These will basically be "secondary wall plugs" - the existing wall plugs will be fed only with genset or shore power. The one up front will be at the forward edge of the kitchen so I can use it for small kitchen appliances as well as running part of my computer/stereo/TV/satelliteinternet loads off it. So OK, why in hell do like this? 1) The price-per-watt for true sine inverter power of the Samlex 600s kicks major ass. Price a Prosine or SW series on a per-watt basis - no comparison. 2) This puts my very expensive computer/internet/satellite gear on a COMPLETELY separate AC line from the shore or genset, giving me VERY clean power and assuring that a shorted-out power tool running off of genset power doesn't fry the hell out of $3,000 worth of Motosat tracking gear! Go to any computer data center in Corporate America and look at the wall plugs. Some will be white, some will be orange. Orange means it's on cleaner filtered power to be used only for high-end computers - lights and electric staplers and whatnot, you run off normal utility grid (white plugs). What I'm doing here is basically replicating that. 3) These mini-inverters can be turned off when not in use, halting even the trickle of power they eat under zero-load conditions and making sure things that are supposed to be "off and no drain" really are. 4) I'll have redundancy. I will be able to run fine on any two 600w inverters and could limp along on one if I had to. Oh, and the old "battery boiler" charger? That will still be physically in and bolted down, just disconnected - if my fancy multi-stage charger blows up and has to get shipped out under warrantee, I can splice the battery boiler back in for a bit and just be careful with it - yet more redundancy. 5) My existing 110v wiring between, say, genset or shore and AC unit are un-messed-with. When boondocking, if there's something I need to power that can't be fed with a 600w inverter, it's time to fire up the genset and feed the normal wall plugs already present for the microwave, power tools, whatever. The inverter isn't wired to those at all, therefore I can get away with far less inverter power than you'd need to feed all the wall plugs for an entire coach with a single under-carriage-mounted monster inverter like a DR or SW. I'll run heating, cooking, water heating and fridge on propane. Lights and water pump are already 12v, I'll run as much else in 12v as I can even if it's a bit more expensive. --------- If you're NOT doing major grade computing on the road and you pick your entertainment electronics with an eye towards lower power needs, you might be able to get away with just two inverters and maybe even smaller than the 600s - a pair of 300s or something. But, for pure sine power, on a per-watt basis the Samlex 600s *rock*. Also note that if you're running an inverter below it's rated max, it's efficiency often goes up. That's another reason I'm going to use 600s. --------- To correct Sean Welsh: there's two crossover points between 12v and 110v: going from 110v to 12v to charge the batteries, and from 12v to 110v for inverter power. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
"To correct Sean Welsh: there's two crossover points between 12v and 110v: going from 110v to 12v to charge the batteries, and from 12v to 110v for inverter power." Jim is entirely correct. *Most*, but not all, modern inverters suitable for coach conversions include a battery charger as an integral component, which means only one point of interface. If you choose separate components, there will be two points. Also, the AC wiring and transfer switching becomes a bit more complex in this case. My turn to correct Jim: "Go to any computer data center in Corporate America and look at the wall plugs. Some will be white, some will be orange. Orange means it's on cleaner filtered power to be used only for high-end computers - lights and electric staplers and whatnot, you run off normal utility grid (white plugs)." Actually, orange means only "Isolated Ground" -- the ground tang for the receptacle is not connected to the metal of the box, and is run separately back to an isolated grounding bus in the main panel. This is because some data processing equipment uses ground as a signal reference, and all such equipment in the same system needs to see the same reference point. Grounding to the junction box can create ground-loop situations which may cause signal reference problems. *Some* data centers choose to use the orange IG outlets to also indicate that these outlets are on filtered power, but that's not any kind of standard. Building large data centers was a major component of my career -- I've done it both ways depending on need. I always insisted that outlets be labeled, regardless of color. I've even gone so far as cutting the plugs off the vacuum cleaners and replacing them with different tang configurations just so the janitors couldn't accidentally plug them in to the clean power system, even if they tried. -Sean | ||
| Vin (Billybonz)
Rating: N/A |
Sean, where I work, orange means the outlet is connected to a UPS. I agree, there seems to be no standard use for the outlets. Ya see um lots in hospital too. Jim, I found lots of 120vac electronic equipment that is easy to convert to 12vdc...my Sony dss receiver for example, I used a mini itx 12v power supply...dss needs 12v & 5v. I prefer to go 120vac to 12vdc, and generate 12v when theres no pole power. I can stay all 12v since the lil lady doesn't want a microwave...says she likes FIRE! to cook on. We pretty much grill everything anyway. I'll miss my coffee maker unless I get stupid and try to convert that too. Bones | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
Bones, No need to give up your coffee: http://www.roadtrucker.com/feature-12-volt-coffee-makers.htm#RoadPro_12_Volt_10_Cup_Deluxe _Coffee_Maker -Sean | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
WOW | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Ron- K.I.S.S. this: http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html http://amplepower.com/wire/index.html but...uhhh.... why.... if you need 12vdc in there, did you rip out the converter? That would have given you all the 12vdc you needed.. And since it was 110vac to 12vdc, you could run it from power pole, genset, or an inverter (4024 or like).... and didn't it also provide a 12vdc charge to the batteries? ya' coulda' added breakers.. Not everything "RV" is bad, ya'know.. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Sean is correct: the "orange plug means filtered power" thing isn't standard. It's somewhat common and was in use where I worked. I was using it as a "conceptual example" of what I'm going to replicate. Cap't Ron, this may have been "info overload". The core concept is that you need two functions: a multi-stage "smart" battery charger to replace that old piece 'o crap "converter" with, and an inverter to drive AC loads off the battery. My "split plan" (separate parts) CAN be the cheapest possible setup. An Iota multi-stage charger with a "smart battery monitor add-on" can be cheaper than the Samlex unit mentioned, the difference being that the Samlex can control three outputs at once and also act as the "battery isolater" between them. In other words, the Samlex charges the house and vehicle batteries but doesn't allow a drain on one to affect the other. This simplifies a lot of wiring. If you already have such isolater stuff in your rig, check out the Iota models (and you MUST add the $25 or so IQ4 smart module): http://www.solarseller.com/_iota_battery_chargers___battery_tender_battery_chargers__insto ck_and_ready_to_s.htm Check out the DLS-45 plus an IQ4 smartcontroller, about $150 together. Much cheaper than the Samlex, good quality, has more power than the 30-amp Samlex, just doesn't have multi-bank isolation like a Samlex. NOTE: on an Iota charger, never buy one with the IQ4 function built in. Get it as the add-on. Reason being, it's only a few bucks more and it can deal with AGM or Gel batteries if you go that route down the road. The built-in type of IQ4 can only cope with plain lead flooded type batteries. You might also be able to run a smaller Samlex or whatever inverter, at least to start: http://www.solarseller.com/samlex_america_sine_wave_inverters_true_sine_wave_.htm One other trick I didn't mention is what I call a "kitchen inverter": buy a fairly cheap modified sine wave critter like a Coleman 3000w for less than $200 - you'd be crazy to trust expensive electronics to it but for "inexpensive, short burst, high drain" items like coffeemakers, microwave, etc, it's fine. Again, you mount it inside and *definately* turn it off when not needed because at that price point, bet your hindquarters it'll "vampire" and suck energy down even when not otherwise in use. This lets you save your much more expensive-per-watt pure sine inverter power for expensive stuff - computer, TV, etc. NOTE: mount it close enough to the kitchen for convenience but NOT where water can splash on it from the sink. Me, I'm like Vin's wife, I don't use a lot of kitchen electrical stuff so I'll probably skip this step for now. But it's certainly an option down the road. | ||
| Vin (Billybonz)
Rating: N/A |
Sean, those coffee pots actually look good. Lots of the 12v stuff can really be junk, but the same can be said about house current coffee pots as well. Maybe I should just switch to Mountain Dew as a morning beverage. Bones | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
Or, you could do like me and collect several 2000AH battery backup units and use them as inverters... When they're free, they're great! I also have MANY 230AH inverters I'll use for the smaller things... Of course, they'll be tied in to my 110v as well as my 24v/12v setup (or DC/DC converter where necessary), and they'll be independently controlled. Further... the charge function of them will be disabled/isolated so that my XANTREX smartcharger will do the job of charging up my batteries. Also.. around my area, the orange/red power recepticles in the hospitals are used for backup power supplies... typically a UPS with a generator behind it. Cheers -Mac | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Sigh. Having said all of the above, I just ran across this: http://store.yahoo.com/affordablesolar/14.html It's a screamin' deal: $819 for a DR series, 2400w at 12v with a good multi-stage charger. Sigh. I'd *still* have to have one 600w pure sine Samlex at $300 to run my most expensive stuff off of. But the DR would replace the other two Samlexes and the individual smartcharger and allow all the wall plugs to work off of battery power. Hmmmm. Tough decision. Damn. Life would be easier, but...still a lot of eggs in one basket, and most of my power would be modified sine of respectable quality versus true sine. And I'd still have to run the genset to get the AC working for more than about 20 to 30 minutes (all the battery would be good for driving AC). Note that for a lot of people, "true sine" isn't needed. *I* need it due to the crazy price tags on some of my electronics, I want to feed that stuff the very best. For people not needing true sine, this fire-sale on the DR 2400w model is going to be way tough to beat. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A |
DR means made for Dominican Republic, Really! They do not tie the ground to the neutral there and there is something different about this unit that I have read. That said, plenty of them in use in boats and RVs. If you have a battery charger built in to the inverter with enough output, you can use all the 12 volt stuff you want to. Some of your wiring may not need to be duplicated as 120 volt lighting if your 12 volt lighting is satisfactory. I have a mixed system, but it is 23 years old in design and it was planned for using the generator a lot. You can now buy 12 volt LED bulbs to replace those nice looking halogen fixtures. You can buy 12 volt flouresent fixtures and 12 volt bulbs for normal light bulb sockets. You could do all your lighting with 12 volt and just count on your inverter's charger to keep the batteries up for the job. If there is an inverter failure, your smart battery charger can meet emergency needs. Just supply an 120 volt outlet near the batteries for that eventuality. If I did my coach from scratch, I believe I would have all DC lighting and just keep a supply of extra bulbs in a small box. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A |
Nice charge rate (120 Amps) and weight too. Some of the true sine wave models weigh more than 100 lbs. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
"Note that for a lot of people, "true sine" isn't needed. *I* need it due to the crazy price tags on some of my electronics, I want to feed that stuff the very best. For people not needing true sine, this fire-sale on the DR 2400w model is going to be way tough to beat." Jim -- I think you'll find that most of your electronics will be fine on MSW. Most electronics use switching power supplies to derive low voltage DC from the AC waveform, and the output of a switcher is indistinguishable whether the incoming waveform is true sine or modified. Analog type power supplies usually have so much filtering on the front end that they, too, will be fine with an MSW input. I would not worry about the electronics at all. True sine wave output is important mostly for motor loads, such as air conditioners and refrigerator compressors. If you are going to run an AC unit or a household reefer off your inverter, you should be looking at "true" sine wave models. If it's just the TV, the stereo, the computer, and the coffeemaker, an MSW unit will do just fine. -Sean | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks JTNG That was very helpful | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
You know, there are mixed messages on that subject (quality modified sine vs. true sine on electronics). Me, I'll be running a minimum of four or five small devices at once, some worth big bucks and "mission critical" to my job. It won't be easy to sort out whether or not all are compatible with a good modified sine and I just don't feel like risking it. |