| Author |
Message |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 7:42 pm: | |
As most of you know, I am installing a Series 60 and 10 speed AutoShift in my Eagle. I am about to have the ECM reprogrammed for the gear ratio/tire size etc. I don’t need to have the HP increased since it is set at 475 HP.
However, the 475 HP is a mixed blessing. In CO we have to have a full torque dyno emission test. I am really concerned that the dyno jockey will just floor the throttle in a low gear and trash the drop box.
In the DDEC III Application and Installation Manual, section 18.3, it talks about the ability of the ECM to have several rating settings which can be selected by a switch. My local DD shop says they never heard of such an option. What I want to do is to leave the present 475 rating for my careful use and then switch to a much lower HP for the emission test.
Does anyone on the board have any experience with this option?
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10
Bus Project details: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm (updated 2/17/05) |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 11:55 pm: | |
Jim: I know that the S60 automatically de-rates to 425 hp with lower gear use when using the DDEC III. This is an auto function of the DDEC unit. I 1st learned this from a Volvo truck dealer. It is not a selectable function as far as I know but rater, a pre-programmed function. |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 11:48 am: | |
James, thanks for the input. I should have been a bit more specific here. DD has a bunch of dual HP ratings that change the engine rating based mostly on whether you are in cruise control or not. For example, they have a 370/430 rating. The engine will produce the 370 rating until you engage the CC and then the engine will produce 430 HP. That was done to encourage drivers to use CC.
What I am referring to is a switch selectable sets of engine ratings which can include one set which is a dual HP rating specifications. The manual talks about setting the ratings at the time of order of the engine and that it must have a specific digital input. As I look further in the book, it looks like the typical On-highway digital input pin assignments do not include a rating switch pin and that it is only an OEM option.
Guess I am screwed. Maybe I can talk to the emission tester (will use the local DD dealer) and see if I can be onboard (not likely with OSHA) or somehow work with the operator to make sure he only uses max HP in high gear. |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:48 pm: | |
Jim
There must be something different about the S60 then a 6V92TA DDECIV because when I hook up the ProLink 9000 I have the option of a lower HP rating just by changing the settings. I would get friendly with your local Detroit Diesel guy and see what the options are. Bill |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 1:12 pm: | |
Bill, when I look at the digital input section of the manual it, along with a ton of other options, is there. I am sure that is why you see it on your ProLink.
However, when I try to find how to activate that option through the digital switch, the problem begins. There needs to be a specific pin on the cable going into the ECM and it does not look like it would be available on a standard config. Worse yet, the connector seems to be full with the normal input and output options.
When I have the ECM programmed, I will take the manual and try to butter them up to see if they can make it work.
I had this fond hope that someone else had played with this option. I can see where it would be handy to have a HP reduction option for bad roads or something like that and one of the folks here had played with it.
Jim |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 2:04 pm: | |
Jim,
Can you give us more information on this "In CO we have to have a full torque dyno emission test" thing. Is this for all diesels or only those over a certain HP or weight rating? Does it cover both commercial and non-commercial vehicles? How often does it have to be done?
Historically, California has lead the nation with picky emission requirements, ie. the 49 state engine and the Californa engine CARB standard. California currently has a smoke particulate test for "commercial" diesels over 26000 GVW, but no testing requirements for non-commercial diesels of any size after purchase.
Chuck Newman
Oroville, CA
PS: I finally tested the VMSpc on my DD S50. Works great. I won't be able to make it to the Caverns this year as planned. Hope to see you in Rickreall, OR. |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:06 pm: | |
Hi Chuck. Sorry that I won't see you at the Caverns, but I will look forward to seeing you at Rickreall. We will not have the bus done for the Caverns, but have strong hopes of having it at the Oregon Rally. Be sure to look me up at our booth.
For many years, the “front range counties” (Denver and surrounding counties) of Colorado have had the same opacity test that California uses. It pertains to all diesels regardless of size. It is a wide open throttle test with the dyno progressively pulling the engine down to 90% of governed engine speed, then 80% and finally 70%. Limit on turbo engines is 20% opacity. They record the snap opacity, but it is not a cause for failure. We get the privilege of paying between $90 and $125 each year for this test!!!
As you can see, with this kind of test, the full engine torque is applied. That just scares the heck out of me.
If I was a little dishonest, I would register the bus in my Daughter’s county, or out of state. I have thought of moving our LLC to Montana, but that creates some other problems. I have heard of people setting up an LLC in Montana (but somehow it is not used for a business, only to establish a “residence”). Just don’t want the hassle if the law decides to come down on us.
Jim |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 4:24 am: | |
Jim
I see what you are saying. I can change the HP with the ProLink but there is no switch setup to do it on a temporary basis unless it is in the program in the first place. You are going to have to butter up your local DD dealer. Good luck. Some of them are actually human so you may be surprised. Bill |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 5:29 am: | |
Some trucking Co have the power avilable changed by GPS position,
They give Leadfoot 300 hp on the flats and 400+ in the hills.
Should be able somehow to just have a switch to limit the RV to 150hp at the State Inspectors and the full output avilable for when you want to run thru 25GPH yourself.
FAST FRED |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 3:10 pm: | |
Jim,
If you have a ProLink, it sounds like you could change (lower) the HP before the emission test, then reprogram it back to full HP after the test, as Bill mentioned. If you don't have one, they are frequently on the bay new at half the cost of retail. If you go that way, check with Bill. From the factory literature I've read, you will need the basic reader, a diesel cartridge, and a DD smaller cartridge that plugs into the larger cartridge. Anyway, from what I've read and info received from a retired DD engineer, certain parameters have to be "unlocked" in the DDEC ECM.
Once unlocked, then they can be changed at will with a ProLink or similar. Parameters such as HP, cruise control, and a few others.
Fred has a good point. I recall reading that somewhere in one of my DDEC manuals. I know my DDEC installation and wiring manuals have more of that type info than the DDEC troublshooting manuals. I have both. For example, the DDEC has a harness plugin for Jake on/off, and full jake/half jake control for certain engines. DD sells a 2" round dash mount with a couple switches on it. I'm going to use existing or new switches mounted where I want them. I like the Jake on/off switch to be a floor switch like Monaco used to do them (maybe still do). I didn't like having the Jake by my left elbow as was mounted in my previous pusher. I'll do the electrical and have Southern Oregon Diesel do the mechanical work, and unlock the ECM.
Anyway, the point I was going to make is the DDEC does have inputs for several functions. I'll check my manuals tonight and try to locate the HP data.
Chuck Newman
Oroville, CA
PS: I thought would never see it -- Colorado is more strict than California. I hope I can get out of here before the Sacramento clowns realize another source of revenue. The current budget deficit does have it's good points. |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 3:36 pm: | |
I bet the dyno guy who does the emmissions testing knows all about the computer stuff limiting the power and torque in the lower gears. He could not be that dumm.
He will (maybe?) will test your Eagle in high (direct) gear, or even in overdrive if you have one. Your drop box is probably strong enough to adsorb that kind of overload for the length of the dyno test. Bet you pass with no problem. |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 5:53 pm: | |
Jim,
Henry has a good point. New Calif testing calls for the tester to use scanner to look for set codes in ECM on gas engines. They use State certified scanners, but otherwise the same off-the-shelf scanners you or I would buy. Remember the case of my TransAm story. The testers (CA and CO) may be able to "see" the HP setting but won't be able to change it without the copyrighted DD module.
It would appear Fred's "hardwire method" is the best to overcome any doubt. But if that avenue is not available, I really don't believe all diesel testers in Colorado will have copyrighted capability to change HP settings in an engine. Without a doubt, if they did that and screwed up someone's engine/tranny, they would be liable for damages. Neither private companies or State agencies want to carry that liability. |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 9:09 pm: | |
From what I have understood from many diesel mechanics that I have talked to is that the HP rating can be changed but, by a DD dealer ONLY and not simply from using a personal pro-link! The pro-link will allow the user to change SOME things but from what I'm told HP is not one of them!
Then aagin I may be all wrong!
Ace |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 1:37 am: | |
Jim,
Per my DDEC III Application and Installation Manual, version 3 lists 30 input functions to the ECM. Some are programmable, some are hardwired. And the version 3 ECM has 19 output functions.
I don't remember (it's late) if you have the DDEC III or IV. Each new version has many new functions, and if you have IV it may have HP control. Certainly version V does. Unfortunately, my manual only covers DDEC III, which is what I have. Sooooo, for DDEC III their appears no harewire help regarding the HP issue on your S60. But, that may not be the case with DDEC IV, which I think you said you have. It may have the function.
As someone posted earlier, I would get to know your local DD dealer. Also, talk to some of the emission test techs and tell them your concerns. They will probably give some insight on the procedure. Then take your bus to the tech you felt most comfortable with. In California, all the procedure are listed in many documents. There are no secrets. It's all public knowledge.
Also, stop by some of the local school bus districts and private operators (bus and truck companies). Try to find a mechanic in the area who truly understands the tests. It's good to get a viewpoint form both sides of the fence.
Another option: If you get it finished before the Ricreal rally, get a trip permit (usually good for 90 days) and stop by SOD and have a chat with Dave or Dennis. Good luck.
Chuck Newman
Oroville, CA |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 1:52 pm: | |
Chuck, I have a DDECIII. It sure looks like they would need to hard wire the ECM for me to do the multiple HP option.
Since the drop box is made to withstand the torque of a 6V92 in low gear, I guess it will last in OD with the Series 60. The numbers would look something like .73 X 1500 ft lbs (for the 10 speed in OD and Series 60) vs worst case of for a 6V92 of 1000 ft lbs X about 3 (low gear in Allison - not counting torque converter multiplication). When you look at those numbers, the drop box should do fine. The major issue is to have them use very minimal throttle in the lower gears (where torque can be over 10,000 ft lbs) and only apply the torque in OD.
Also, I am not sure how the dyno rollers and tires can handle all of that speed and torque. It was not an issue with my IHC (DT466) and motorhome, but this is a bunch more power and speed (close to 100 MPH in OD). They must run the test at a reasonable road speed and, hopefully, in OD.
As I look at this more realistically, it probably will not be a problem
TD. Have talked a bunch to Sonnie Gray. Even got to see his bus and talk to him at Bussin 2005. He put the truck rear end in by relocating the drive axle to the front and the tags to the rear. That is one huge job and involves moving fuel tank and very major frame modifications. For him it was worth it (others have done that as well), but I just don't want to take on that much.
I will have to live with the drop box.
Thanks to all for their thoughts!!
Jim |
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