| Author |
Message |
jake4106748
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 6:47 pm: | |
Hey all. I am going to "retire" the bus next week.. 62 4106. Any brands to stay away from? I will probably buy them in OK city, as we will be passing thru next week from Tex. Any and all suggestions appreciated. Oh yeah, will be putting on 11 x 22.5's,, or similiar,, same as equipped now. Thanks Jake |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:46 pm: | |
Doublecoin sucks. Other than that, nothing else to say except that I'd put Bandags on the rear. |
jake4106748
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:53 pm: | |
bandags? are they a recap? Less expensive? These will be the first bus tires I've had to buy, so dont know much about them,,, thanks again, Jake |
mel 4104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 12:11 am: | |
Johnny has the right idea ,put a set of new Bridgestone steer tires the front and a set of recps on the rear. this set up will likely last you over 10 years. in the real hot weather places you might want to replace them every 5 years but if you keep the tires covered from the sun and off the bare ground when not in use your tires will last a long time . when you park your bus have some kind of cover to keep the sunshine of the tire and by putting something under tie tire to prevent them from touching the ground will help keep them better. i use Bridgestone on the front as they are not as soft a tire as some of the other types which will stop your bus from swaying so much when driving. |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 1:33 am: | |
I would never run recaps on any thing. If you ever saw how much dammage a recap does when it comes apart and how they fail about about 2 times more often as a non recap. I had brand new recaps blow apart in a few 1000 miles . The little money you save on them will be nothing if it blows and rips a hole in your bay or dents it all to shit.
If your steers are not to old or used up move them to the rear and buy 4 new tires just keep them paired up and same rotation.
Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon |
Derek (Derek_l)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 2:10 am: | |
I don't know what kind of recaps you had, Brian, but trucking companies and bus companies are running high quality (bandag for one) recaps with no problems. |
thattruckerguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 8:47 am: | |
No problems on recaps? What are all those tire treads (alligators) doing out on the road. I will not run bandags or any other recaps. |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 9:08 am: | |
Can't confirm it, but I have read that some of those "road gators' are from new tires that have not been recapped. One of the leading causes of tire failure (recap or new) is low inflation which leads to increased tire temperature and tire failure. just my opinion, YMMV Jack |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 10:00 am: | |
Improper inflation and lack of use kills tires, not "the sun" or
"dampness". Tires are made to release chemicals that keep
it resilient. The chemicals don't release if the tire isn't rolling
along. Hell, tires got more sun driving on the highway from
NY to Miami daily, than it ever got sitting in the barnyard..
Those covers are just another RV scam.
Unless I were going to use the bus daily and drive the hell
out of it, I wouldn't go buying brand new tires. Take-offs are
a fraction of the price and the amount of time I'd get out of
them far outweighs the cost of brand new ones.
I never trusted re-caps, regardless of who's testified here
regarding safety, etc.. I'd take re-grooved tires before re-capped,
since the tire manufacturers made their tires to be re-grooved...
Or.. have the ones you have now re-grooved.. Use 'em on the
rears only...
[/my .02] |
jake4106748
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 10:36 am: | |
hmm,, okay if I was looking for takeoff's,, where would I look and what prices are we talking? Thanks for all the imput! |
mel 4104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 11:47 am: | |
those of you that do not like recaps should go to a truck stop and look at the tires they are running on the back axels, and as the driver what kind of trouble he has had and where the tires were located on the rig. as most companies use good tires on the front from a major supplier and will run recaps on the drive axels, or regrovable which ever they have at the time , however the trailor tires are a different ball game as that is where they put the worst tires as they may not se that trailer again for weeks and if they put good tires on it when it comes back they find the tires have been switched. most of what you see laying on the roads comes of the trailors, just listen to a truck that has a flat pass you and the noise comes from the trailor tires. and as said look after your tire s by keeping them inflated proper. |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 12:07 pm: | |
I would agree on good used non recaps on the rears. I also drove for trucking Co. that used the best recaps money could buy and I still had them blow apart. Also if you run any tire under inflated or it sits for a long time you can have them blow up.
Derek, Try running across AZ in the summer at 75 MPH and see how your recaps do I would bet you dont make it 100 miles.
If you go to a truck stop ask a owner operator that buys his tires and see waht he put on his truck I would bet 99% would never buy a recap for there truck or trailer. Go see for your self!
I had a lot of jobs a one was trucking owner op and driving for JB Hunt and from what I saw they should outlaw recaps they suck and will never be good!!!!
Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 2:12 pm: | |
"Take-offs" can be found at most all of the truck tire shops.
Prices range from $50 to $150, depending on the shop and
amount of wear.
I have two decent ones lined up down here with a quoted
$125 (plus $24 each for mounting). They have about 40% life
left to them. That should take me about three years or more...
Well... at the rate I'm getting this converted, they may last the
rest of my life....
The guy I bought the bus from gave me two that he bought
for $75 each. They have about 80% left... Now I'm running
Michelin 315r80x22.5 on all wheels! (and yeah, highway
speed rated if under 10k lb per tire)
I'd have the tires on the tags re-grooved when the time comes.
It's a waste putting anything too good on the tags..
Cheers! |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 4:56 pm: | |
I would put the very best I could find...goodyear or Michelins on the steer axel,even if I had to go used tires on the back...once you've had a steer axle blowout...ya' don't EVER want that to happen again... |
Don/TX
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 6:47 pm: | |
I ran recaps on my Kenworth and my bus for years. I never had a failure, they cost less than new, and far outlast a new tire. ANY tire that fails will tear up things. Fighter jets use them, airlines use them, your kid goes to school on them if he rides a school bus, just stop at the next truck stop and notice how many you will see (you got to look closely, they still say Michelin or something on the sidewall of course, only a little "Bandag" up at the tread). VERY RARELY are any of those road alligators from a recap, most all are from "regular" tires. Stop and take a look sometime, I have. Mine did very well across New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona in the hottest of summer heat too. |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 7:56 pm: | |
BUT.....you did not run them on the steer axel |
Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 1:53 pm: | |
Virgins vs. recaps will be a continuing discussion regardless of who you are talking to, be it motorcoach operators or truck operators.
When it comes to a bus that doesn't do very many miles, I use whatever I can find that is inexpensive. More times than not the tires will rot off long before you get down to the wear bars. I have used take offs many times and have had great value for the $$$.
Why spend the big $$$ for brand new name brands? Off brands, or even off-off brands will normally provide the service you need in a bus that doesn't travel that much.
As far as recaps go I generally do not like to use them. But that is my preference since the cost difference between caps and virgins is not that much if one is looking at purchasing off brands. Also, unless you know the history of the casing that has been capped, you may be getting a first time cap or you may be getting a third time cap. In the first case you may be getting a pretty good tire. In the second case, you may be getting a tire that is not long for this world.
As far as the alligators on the side of the road go, I don't think you can say they are all from recaps (I know one of them is from one of my Goodyear steer tires). But I think you can say the majority of them are from underinflated tires (mine was old age more than anything else).
Mark O. |
Cliff (Floridacracker)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 4:19 pm: | |
The problem is not with retreads specifically, but with poor maintenance practices. Under inflated tires run excessively hot resulting in tread separation. It is just as likely that the “road alligator” is a new tire.
If the alligator has imbedded wire it is from a new tire and if it is wireless it is from a retread.
Cliff |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:26 pm: | |
a celular retread ?? |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 6:42 pm: | |
Hello tire fans!
Links to government research below.
It is well researched: poor tire maintenance is the cause of tires coming apart while driving. More often than not the tire has run underinflated, or flat, builds up heat and breaks up.
It's your money, and please, spend it the way you want!!
But, I might recommend the first purchase be a good quality tire gauge, and it might be worth thinking really hard about installing one of those new real-time pressure monitor systems that warn you while driving.
Remember, the tire that ended up blowing apart due to "underinflation" ran over a nail somewhere, or leaked the valve or whatever... and if the resulting loss of pressure had been noted at the time, all the owner had to do to save that $$tire$$ is get it fixed, saving a ton of money, headache and safety.
Monitors aren't cheap at first glance, but it might be a pretty good return on investment, eh?
If you like, have a read of the properly conducted government studies linked below, taking note that retread debris is found to be somewhat more prevalent, but there are more of them sold as replacement tires, so that starts closing the gap. "Of the nearly 33.8 million replacement tires purchased by fleets in 2000, over 18.1 million were retreads and only about 15.6 million were new replacement tires."
Also, the studies don't delve into how often retreads might be more likely to be in the hands of those who don't pay as much attention to their tires....
Here are some links if you are interested in more details:
http://www.retread.org/
is the retreader's industry association, Their website is comprehensive, (if self-serving) and includes three government studies, done in Michigan, Arizona and Virginia. Scroll down on the left margin and click on the "Government" tab.
http://www.heavydutytrucking.com/2001/06/044a0106.asp
is an article in one of the truck industry magazines aluding to the pro-rail conspiracy of raising the costs of trucking by fueling fears about retreads...
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 7:15 pm: | |
It's a no win battle. If they don't sell enough new truck tires,
manufacturers will cut back production of that size, raising
the price and availability of the tires. They make the tires
to be re-grooved, giving the buyer a decent amount of use
before a new one is needed. Re-capping and using that casing
for even more use, may only result in a false long-term savings.
By buying and using "take-offs" and using re-grooved tires,
you're "recycling" and helping keep the costs down for all...
Pretty noble gesture, ehh? |
Derek (Derek_l)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 7:31 pm: | |
Wait a minute.
Several times people have mentioned "regrooving". Many times "recapping" or "retreading" has been mentioned.
I am under the impresstion that they are all the same thing, which consist of grinding off the "cap" of the tire and adhering a new one, with tread, in place.
Nowhere have I heard of a regrooving process, where I assume that one cuts new grooves in the tire?
If someone could provide for me a link to a description of, or even a mention of regrooving, so as to prove that retreading and regrooving and recapping aren't all the same, I'd appreciate it.
Until then, your argument falls way short, Mr. Newguy. |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 8:08 pm: | |
they DO cut groves in slick tires |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 8:14 pm: | |
Well. Wait one minute Mr. Derek! I am sorry. I did not
realize you had just fallen off the potato truck. Here, I'll
provide a link for you:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=tire+re-grooving
Almost every truck/bus tire I've ever looked at, are rated
to be "re-groovable" by the manufacturer. That is, new grooves
may be cut into the tire when the old grooves wear down.
Normally, special knives are used with a machine designed to
do the task effortlessly, but I also saw handheld knives designed
for that purpose.
And yes, manufacturers feel a regrooved tire is just as safe
as the new tire, provided the tire casing or sidewalls haven't
been injured. They wouldn't tell you to go ahead and re-groove
it if they thought it would place then in a libelous situation. |
H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 8:40 pm: | |
Derik sorry to say but you lose this one! Re-grooving tires goes way back and they still do it today on large passenger tires such as busses and trucks and let's not forget the re-grooving the World of Outlaw guys do to their Outlaw sprint cars that are raced on dirt! They usually do this trackside depending on track conditions! same process for both except theirs is hand held where as a commercial groover would be electric or manual!
Ace... the bad guy |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:13 am: | |
Brian: 1977 Dodge motorhome, Hi-Tec Retreading all-season tires on all wheels (Goodyear casings, size 8.75R16.5E), running at 80psi & approximately 95-98% of maximum load in back. They had no trouble with a 450 mile trip in the middle of summer, & were still on there when the RV was sold 2 years later.
The tally for me:
LT235/85R16E OTR Mudders on my F-350
P235/75R15 all-season on the back of my Olds station wagon
33x12.50R15 Mudders on my wife's Blazer
At work, all the wreckers (3 pickups, 1 F-550, 1 International, 1 F-800) run caps...Hi-Tecs & Bandags only. I've picked up plenty of carcasses...less than one third were Bandags.
I rarely see a highway coach that does NOT have recaps on the drive axle, & sometimes on the tag axle, also.
My bus will have Bandags on the drive axle. |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 1:13 am: | |
Jonny my tally.
1973 chevy Vega recaps on it when I buy it used 2 blow apart with in 3 weeks.
My peterbuilt bought used had all newer looking bandags on the drive axles some time around 1990. Lost one the 1st month it riped off the 1/4 fender $120. plus a replacement tire a joe's ripyouoff AZ. Next one riped off the rear mud flap put a hole in the air bag. More time and money. I put all the new looking recaps in the trash. Got all new tires .Run the truck coast to coast with no more tire problems at some times 75 mph over loaded for 24 hours non stop. Did this for over 250000 miles + with out any more tire problems . And I did check the tires every time I stoped .
Work for other Companys that did not use caps on the trucks but did run caps on trailes that averaged 1 blow out a month.
At JB Hunt I averaged 125000 miles per year the first year had 3 caps blow out on tractors and lost count on the trailes on one of the cab overs the cap riped off the fuel water seperator
there was a lost day of pay. And I can go on and on and on.
JB Hunt has one of the best truck service maintance going they use the best caps money can buy . Being one of the largest trucking Co. in the USA its cheeper with the % of tire blow outs to use caps.
Almost no Owner Opererator that runs long haul would ever buy caps. The saving is just not that much for the down time or dammage a cap can do.
The way I see it if its no good to use on your steer axle its not going on my bus. Its kind of like smoking not every one will die but some do.
So if you feel lucky go ahead . But one day what you saved will catch up with you when you have air bags riped bays all dented up your toad has a big dent in it you may think differntly.
I dont play games trying to save a buck ,ON Tires ,Brakes. Its your money your life blow it any way you want. I still say recaps suck.
Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 5:41 am: | |
Put on NEW virgin tires , after 5 years take em off and sell them to a trucker.
As a virgin casting with factory rubber he will be a ready buyer as he can wear the treads off 2X more before the casing is too old for the honest recappers.
Saves a bunch if you have your coach very long.
FAST FRED |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:04 am: | |
So, because of problems with off-brand caps almost 30 years ago on a car, & Fates-know-how-old Bandags 15 years agop, you won't use Bandags now? Yeah...that makes sense.
My uncle drove & wrenched on rigs for about 30 years...he openly questions the financial sense of any O/O who doesn't put Bandags on the drive axles.
He openly questions the intelligence of anyone who uses any recaps other than Bandag on a semi. |
Don/TX
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:20 am: | |
I see this thread has grown to some intelligent remarks, some not.
University of Mich as I recall not long ago made studies, a tire is in fact STRONGER at 5 years then when new!! Stop and think, the DOT rules that are unusually strict usually, allows 40 year old recaps on the drive or trailing axle, so does the FAA. So 40 year old recaps are good for 80,000 lb plus vehicles, 300 mph runs from a 747, your local school bus, but no good for your bus. Sounds like BS to me somewhere. |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 4:25 pm: | |
If they are so good why not use them on your steer axle?? Why the dot says no to steer axle?
When the DOT says its ok on the steer axle I may think about using them on my drives.
Ok now this point. Some here say not good to keep your tires over 5 years. So now you get a brand new recap on a 5 year old casing so now what? Its now good! And the 5 year rule dont apply?
So if I understand if you buy new tires you have to replace them in 5 years buy a recap when do you repace it if you have some with 5 year old casing some 2 year old casing and one 7 year old one?
What type of warranty on recaps same as new tires?
Is it easy find a replacement recap if you dammage one ?
Can you get easly find all 4 casings of the same brand and year when you buy recaps?
Will you feel safe at 75 MPH in the AZ heat @ 120 deg. with recaps?
Now 5 year old tires are STRONGER at 5 years then new!! that sounds like BS if you ask me.
Some one show me any study that shows recaps will last ,not blowup , perform 100% the same as a new tire?
Show me anyone that runs them on the steer axle in the USA for over the road in any big truck or bus! No one does!!!
Does Gray Hound run recaps??
Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon |
Don/TX
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 5:09 pm: | |
I am not selling anything, if you look back on this board, you will find the link to the university study on tire aging. They were trying to settle the 3 yr, 5 yr, 7 yr replacement claims of tire sellers, as I recall for the FTC. To their surprise, they found the increase in tire casing strength at 5 years. Truckers run Bandags on most every axle except the steer, because DOT says you cannot run them there. I understand it is because the tread compound is so much harder, they slide when turned sideways easier, aircraft don't turn when landing so they can have them on the steer axle.. I know they last FAR longer on the drivers than the best Michelin you can buy. They are available at any tire shop or truck stop, the warranty far exceeds the new tires warranty. Price per mile is the bottom line when trucking for sure. Been a few years, but roughly a Bandag was about $100, new $300, and the $100 tire would outlast by far the $300 one and would have a better warranty.
Talk is cheap, but next time you are at a bus bash, check out the date codes on tires, see how many are over 5 years old. Pretty pricey to spend over $5000 eavry 5 years for new tires! |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:15 pm: | |
Egads!
We all have our opinions about recaps. I think the vast majority
feel recaps will fail long before a "normal" tire.
Universities get grants and big $$$ from corporations. Does
anyone take their "studies" seriously? It's paid advertising,
regardless how you slice the pizza.
Common sense should be sitting on one's shoulder, telling their
host that there is no way to tell what's happened to a used tire.
Is the casing perfect, or has the sidewall suffered from under inflation,
over inflation, curb hits, etc.... has the thread surface suffered
punctures; has it been run over rocks and curbing?
They're going to put a layer of new rubber carrying new thread
design on a casing that's carried a totally different thread design.
Will that conflict with the "set" of the steel belt and cause it to
delaminate?
I've never driven a bus that had recapped tires. Regooved tires
on the drive and/or tag.... yes.. |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 8:55 pm: | |
I have never used recaps on a bus but when I traded the tires in for new ones I did not get the casing credit until the recapping company had x-rayed the trade-ins. My trade-ins were good casings that had never had a flat or run underinfalated and I never had a reject.
A trucker friend of mine who always sent in eight driver tires or eight trailer tires each time would usually get at least one returned with one or more chalked circles on it. |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 9:31 pm: | |
I'd run bandags on the back...would have no problem with that....would still want very good tires on the steer |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 9:35 pm: | |
Well. I guess that's a positive sign, Stan! I've been to two places
that do "recapping", one here and one back in Massachusetts...
Both were local shops and didn't have any x-ray.. Their inspection
was visual. I can't imagine how an x-ray can tell if the plies were
separating or of there are weaknesses in the rubber itself, but
I've always been a "Doubting Thomas".. I guess places like
Bandaid have better equipment?
Cheers! |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:56 am: | |
Brian: My truck, 3 pickup-chassis wreckers, my wife's K-5, my friend's K-20, & 2 different motorhomes all have Hi-Tec Retreading's recaps on the front. Wrecker use is BRUTAL on tires--regular overloading, city driving (over some truly awful roads), curb hits. We've NEVER had a Hi-Tec retread fail...which is more than I can say for the vaunted $160 Michelins.
JTNG: Of the 8 tires (B315/80R22.5) on the VanHool coach at work, 2 (steer) are new Goodyear Metro Milers, the other 6 are Bandags (also Metro Milers). I rarely see a coach around here that DOESN'T have caps on at least the drive axle. Dunno about 'Hound, but Gray Line, Fung Wah, Conway, & Peter Pan all run Bandags.
Personally, I think the "tires are only good for 5 years" line is just a scam to sell tires. As long as the rubber isn't cracked or rock-hard, I don't worry about it. |
Derek (Derek_l)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 4:11 am: | |
No need to apologise Ace, was simply asking for info. |
Don/TX
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 7:45 am: | |
Thank you Johnny, for simply adding some real world experience to a lot of old wives tales and tire salesman puffing. |
jake4106748
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 4:00 pm: | |
Well okay ,,, thanks for all the info everyone! I think I will buy 2 new steers,, and put good take-offs in the rear,, stay tuned , let you know how it works out ,, in a year or 2,, have lived in the bus for 2 years now, and have logged a little under 6ooo miles, thanks again, Jake |