| Author | Message | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: |
I noticed all the inverters I have looked at just have regular ac recepticals on them. Either 1 to 4 recepticals. is there a way to hard wire them directly into my service panel? do some have that option built in? I noticed some on E-Bay have what look like knock out plugs in them to posibly hook up hard wire , not sure though. | ||
| Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A |
buy a real inverter, not a truckstop special.....expect to pay 1000+ | ||
| JimCallaghan
Rating: N/A |
Most of the Heart,and Trace type inverters have provisions to hard wire directly to your panel. I'm not an expert, but I would think that all at or above 2000 watts you could hard wire. JIm | ||
| bruce king
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With a large inverter, what most folks do is run a large diameter cable from the inverter to a service panel; some use a 60amp service panel, some use a 100amp. I used a 100 amp because it gave me more breaker positions, so I could run a reasonable number of circuits, and dedicate those that should be dedicated -- the refer circuit, for instance, bathroom gfci circuits, etc. | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
Some body E-mailed me a link to a source for a plug that goes in the inverter and makes it a 30 amp outlet instead of 2 15 amp outlets then I can plug my cord for my main into it just like my gen. and shore power connections. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
You mean one of these?: http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?skunum=24495 There are also adapters that allow you to plug into a 30 amp and a 15-20 amp outlet, to utilize 50amp service plug.. You can then get an adapter to go from that 50amp outlet to your 30amp plug.... But you'll be 100% better off changing to 50 amp service, splitting your system, and using adapters as needed, to plug into whatever's available. 30+20 to 50 adapter: http://reserveamerica.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?skunum=25774 | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
How bout this one? https://www.rvsurplussalvage.com/catalog/display.php?product_id=1340 | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
How about?? Man, do they really sell that fire log? Now Maybe I'll get flamed by the experts and electrical wizards here..... But if the outlet you're going to plug that into is only rated for 15 amps and you're going to be pulling 30 amps through it, you might want to include a fire extinguisher in that order for that nifty device... The "dogbone" adapters do that (allow you to us a 30 amp plug with a 15 amp outlet), but you'll usually burn the outlet, melt it, or smoke up the area quite nicely if you try to actually use 30 amps of service. I thought you were referring to the type of adapter that plugs into two separate/different outlets. One 30 amp outlet connected to two cords, each that terminate to 15 amp plugs... I like the way the ad reads: "Put an end to adaptor burn-out forever!" Yeah, but what about the outlet and 15/20 amp wire that feeds it? You'll hear more about this, prolly... I can feel the keys flyin' as I hit the return... HAR.. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
John: There has always (last thirty years) been adaptors to go from a 15 amp receptacle to a 30 amp RV plug. You can only draw 15 amps or you trip the circuit breaker on the receptacle. The "firelog" you refer to is an improvement in that the weight of the RV cable wil not pull the adaptor loose, causing burned connections. The 30+20 adaptor that you refer to can be a very dangerous connection. If they are on opposite sides of the line you will get 240 volts into your 120 volt RV. The safe way to accomplish this is the way the old RVs did. Run a separate wire for the rear A/C. | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
I'm going Amish. I'm putting in gas lights and pully's and belts for every thing else. Actualy I'm watching a 5000/10000 watt inverter on ebay. so are any of these chords or plugs/adapters that go to my main chord for my service panel safe? | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Ron: All the changeup adaptors sold in the RV stores are safe. You just have to use them properly and know their limitations. Any outlet you plug into is protected by a circuit breaker. Your main panel in the bus should have a main breaker that will protect the shore power cord in case of a overload. Very simply this means that if you are running a 120 volt, bus you use a #10 shore cord and a 30 amp main breaker. If you are running a 240 volt bus you use a #6 shore cord and a 50 amp main breaker. With either system you can use an adaptor to to go to the other type of plug or even to a 15 amp receptacle. You can never draw more curent than the circuit breaker feeding it and your bus has to be protected up to the maximum circuit breaker rating that you connect to. If you use an adaptor to go from 120 30 amp cord to a 240 50 amp there is a small risk in case of a shore power cord fault to ground before it gets to your main panel breaker. For this reason, all wiring inside the bus, before the main breaker needs to be well protected. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Another battle? You either have a 30 amp, 110v system; a 50 amp split 110v system, or a 50 amp 110/220v system. Most RVs being made today have 50 amp 110v split systems. You can ask for a 220v circuit to be provided for a dryer, etc... You can convert any 30amp 100v system into a 50amp 110v split system by installing a new 50 amp dual circuit cord to carry what some here so passionately call "220v service" into the panel, and wire one 110v side into what the genset usually is wired to and provides for. If you assume that you'll "pop the breaker" if you try to draw 30 amps out of a 15 amp outlet, you'll be a bit dismayed when you find that your plug, or the outlet box has melted. Worse still, is the smoke coming from the wall where the outlet is mounted. Been there; done that. And too, too many times. And... if you think that anything sold is safe to use.... best to think again. I've had a "dog bone" burst into flames at one campground and numerous others melt beyond recognition. I've melted outlets at camp sites using a 50 to 30 amp "adapter" sold at that famous RV supply store.. So Ron.... Youse takes yer lumps... Using the box that plugs into a 30 and a 20 to provide you 50 amp service is about the best. You would be pulling the proper amount of current distributed across outlets designed for that amount of current. And no, you won't find any "phase" problems. Well, you shouldn't, since both outlets are usually mounted at the same camp pedestal and would have smoked up the joint long before you got there. But you were asking about the inverter's outlets... If the manufacturer makes an adapter, I'd feel safe using it.. If not, I'd worry about ruining a good inverter.. Cheers? | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
John: Your lack of knowledge of anything electrical makes it impossible to explain anything to you. I just hope that people reading the board don't get their electrical information from you. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A |
As far as melting adapters, Resistance equals heat. Poor, dirty connections in the adapters with a large load will melt the adapters and/or cords for that matter. Keeping connections clean & dry and limiting loads to the capcity of the adapters/cords will help prevent melting. Jack | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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I'm probably the last person to jump in and defend JTNG, but I agree with most of what he wrote, regarding not making assumptions about the safety of either adaptors or campground pedestals. However, this statement needs correction: "Using the box that plugs into a 30 and a 20 to provide you 50 amp service is about the best. You would be pulling the proper amount of current distributed across outlets designed for that amount of current." Not necessarily... a coach wired with a true 50-amp shore power setup *can* draw nearly twice the power as is available with this type of box (50 amps per leg for two legs = 12,000 watts, vs. 30 amps plus 20 amps = 6,000 watts). So you will be, once again, relying on the circuit protection behind the pedestal's 30- and 20-amp receptacles for safety. My own coach will draw 35 amps for the battery charger alone when it sees a 50-amp shore service. That would (one hopes) trip the campground breaker in short order. That being said, the commercial versions of this device are not inherently dangerous as Stan suggested in an earlier post. These units contain a 240-volt-coil relay, and do not pass power through to the coach unless the supplying receptacles are wired to opposite legs of the service (and both are connected). The principle safety-related reason why this is done is to prevent voltage from being back-fed down to one of the plugs (from a 240-volt appliance being left "on"). I also want to respond to something Stan wrote earlier: "There has ... been adaptors to go from a 15 amp receptacle to a 30 amp RV plug. You can only draw 15 amps or you trip the circuit breaker on the receptacle." Well, this may be incorrect as well, because many 15-amp receptacles are supplied by 20-amp breakers. This is the one exception in the NEC for over-rating breakers -- it's to allow multiple 15-amp receptacles to be served by one 20-amp circuit. As a consequence, many 20-amp circuits have dual-configuration receptacles (the female receptacle will accept both 15-amp and 20-amp plugs). If the adapter is rated for only 15-amps, it's possible to exceed this rating by a full 25%. (Most such adaptors use wire that will carry 20 amps, and it's just the plug end itself that has the lower rating.) Lastly, responding to Ron's question about replacing "a 30 amp outlet instead of 2 15 amp outlets" -- The problem with this idea, and the reason why the device you found at the slavage place is not really helpful (and is being so highly debated above) is that you probably don't really have two 15-amp circuits on that inverter. It is probably just one 15-amp, or maybe one 20-amp circuit which happens to be feeding a "duplex" receptacle. In which case, the whole receptacle is rated for only 15 amps, whether that amount is drawn from one outlet or both outlets. In other words, it's just like using one of those cube-taps to get more outlets from a receptacle for your christmas lights... it doesn't make any more current available. If the inverter's rated to put out 15 amps, trying to draw 30 will ultimately overload it. HTH, -Sean | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
After fifty years of working with electricity, I have rarely had a problem with UL rated components that were used for their intended purpose. Note that in my previous post I said that adaptors were safe if used properly and know their limitations. It should be obvious to all that using a 15 amp adaptor on a 20 amp circuit is not what it was designed for and is prone to failure. As to the 30+20 adaptor that John recommended, note that the web page says that the customer should check source polarity before using and can't be used on a GFI. I have stayed in hundreds of campgrounds and never found it necessary to do an electrical inspection of the campground pedestal. I limited my load to what the plug was rated for and just plugged in (with an adaptor if necessary). If I had to adapt down to a 15 amp receptacle I supported the cable so that it was not hanging on the receptacle (a major cause of overheated connections). I can also say that in over 20 years of fulltiming in three different busses that I wired the only electrical problem I had was changing lightbulbs (T8-20W florescents with electronic ballasts that didn't seem to like modified sine wave). | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
I just talked to the manufacturer of the inverter I'm looking at. He said to wire 2 plugs into a 30 amp cable to feed my panel.then plug the 2 15 amp plugs into any two of the recepticals on the inverter. He said this would be safe. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
Ron -- I seldom believe manufacturers, who have a vested interest in selling their own products. In this case, I disagree with their recommendation to wire two plugs to the same cable. The simple reason is that, if one plug comes loose for any reason, you will now have a plug flopping around with exposed tangs thay have 120 volts across them. This could be a fire hazard and/or a life safety issue. If the manufacturer is claiming an output rating of 30 amps, you could go with the two-fer device you linked to earlier, or you could replace the receptacle on the inverter. I prefer the latter option, but bear in mind that this may void the device's warranty, and will make a listed device become unlisted. If the receptacle on the inverter is the standard type with a cover plate, this is as easy as removing it and replacing it with a 30-amp RV receptacle. If it is a "panel-mount" style, where the receptacle is mounted from the back into outlet-shaped cutouts, or the snap-in square style, you will need to remove them and mount a 2"x4" electrical box to the unit to install the 30-amp receptacle. If you're going to go that far, you could also hard-wire it. Stan -- I want to be clear that my follow-up comments to your posts are aimed at readers who have less experience than you do, and are not intended as a criticism of your qualifications. For example, you wrote: "Note that ... I said that adaptors were safe if used properly and know their limitations. It should be obvious to all that using a 15 amp adaptor on a 20 amp circuit is not what it was designed for and is prone to failure." Well, perhaps it *should* be obvious, but often it is not. In general, it's not even possible for the average person to know what size circuit he is plugging into. Sure, if the receptacle is right below the breaker, such as on a campground pedestal, you might think that someone looking at the receptacle would know it was 20-amps, and modify their behavior accordingly. However, what if they are using a 15-amp receptacle on the side of their friend's house? Also, many people incorrectly assume that if they buy an adaptor in a major store, and it fits in the outlet, that it is safe to use. Few people bother to read warning labels and instructions. As you know, many provisions of the NEC are in place for exactly this reason. Lastly, your comment about not inspecting the campground pedestal distresses me a little bit. Perhaps you are talking about a more detailed inspection, but I have to recommend to people that they at least test these outlets before using them, at a bare minimum with one of the three-light type outlet testers (but better to use a voltmeter). I have found several miswired receptacles in campgrounds over the 10+ years I've been RVing. The most common problem I have discovered is completely missing ground connections, which are dangerous in spite of the fact that everything will still work. I have also found reversed hot/neutral and reversed neutral/ground (this last item being one that the little tester will not find). Low voltage seems to be a common problem as well -- I once found a receptacle that was putting out only 80 volts. -Sean | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Ron- I guess (according to what the manufacturer told you to do), each outlet on the inverter is rated for 15 amps and the breaker for each is 15 amp. That would make converting one 15 amp outlet to a 30 amp outlet impractical. Using two in parallel as the manufacturer suggests, would certainly provide a total of 30 amps available at 110v at the 30 amp outlet you are terminating the combination into. You have nothing to lose but some time, trying it out. But like Sean mentioned, I would be -real- careful to insure one or the other plug doesn't end up hanging free to cause harm. In fact, I'd make a call to the manufacturer again and ask if I could just combine the wires of two outlets (parallel wire) to a single 30 amp outlet, since in fact, that's what you'd be doing anyway. I personally don't like the sound of it all and wouldn't trust the breaker of either one of the 15 amp supplies to trip under an overloaded condition. If it twir me and I absolutely had to do something like that, I think I'd wire for 50 amp service and make a 50 to 15x2 adapter that would allow me to plug into two separate 15 amp outlets. Everything would be totally separate in that case, and a much safer way to accomplish what you're trying to do.. Cheers man.... (and thanks, Sean!) | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
snip "a 50 amp split 110v system, or a 50 amp 110/220v system." JTNG, since you seem so knowledgable, perhaps you can explain this statement that I copied from your post. In specific, I would like to know the difference between the two systems. And more specifically, the actual wiring at the power pedestal (pole). Richard | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Ritchie- No need to be so sarcastic... With typical 30 amp RV service, you can run only one air conditioner and some appliances at a time when connected to the very standard 30amp power pole. The other RV air conditioner and balance of outlets cannot be used unless: A. You transfer the connection to the "other section" via a switch, or B. You start the genset to supply the power to the other section. And of course, you can't have 220v unless it's with the genset. Some RVrs re-wired the panel to allow a second power cord to be used (to connect to a second 110v power pole connection), and provide to the "dead" section, what is normally provided when using the genset. Manufacturers, knowing that the market wanted a way to use everything in the RV at once when connected to the power pole, devised the use of a "50 amp" power cord. Yes, all it is in reality, is a 220 power cord. But it wasn't the manufacturers intention (originally) to provide 220. All they wanted to do, was make it -real easy- for an RVer to use all their appliances at the same time. By sending into the RV, two legs of 110v service from the power pole, and feeding each of the 110 service to the parts of the RV that are usually unusable with 30 amp service..... and when that 50 amp RV cord is plugged into a 220v outlet.... The RVer can use all of the air conditioning and all other appliances at the same time, just as if the genset was running and you had both 30 amp legs of 110v flowing... On near all but the extreme top-of-line RVs, the 50amp line is split at the RV distribution panel (breaker box) to provide ample 110v power to each of circuits as I just described. 50 amp service is, for all practical purposes, a split 110 volt system, not a 220 volt system. And any novice or idiot such as me, finds it a lot easier understanding that, than try to figure out how my 110v TV is running on 220....... (it ain't) You either have a 30 amp 110v service that is "split" between shoreline and genset, or two 50 amp 110v services that are "split".. and each of it's two legs of power is providing the power your 30 amp RV would have, if plugged into the power pole and the genset was running with it. I dunno.... mbbe I donna' speka englas gud. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
JTNG, did not mean to sound sarcastic. That is the problem with the written word. It is easy to misunderstand sometimes. I still have some problem understanding the difference. As an example, every home wired in the past 40-50 years is wired as 240/120 volts. Although you may never need it, the 240 volts is always available. Just buy the proper type circuit breaker (50 amp, two pole for example) and you will have two legs of 120 volts at 50 amps each for a total capacity of 100 amps. If you so desire, you could have one leg of 250 volts for a total capacity of 50 amps from this same circuit breaker. To me, this seems to be the same thing as is available at the power pedestal in an RV park. The shore cord coming into the RV then terminates in a distribution circuit breaker box where you have the choice of selecting 120 volt outputs or 240 volt outputs, depending on the type of circuit breaker selected. I never considered the sharing between the genset and the power pole. In fact this is the first time I have ever heard of it. Richard | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Richard-- With any 30amp RV, both airs (and other circuit associated appliances) can be run while connected to the 30 amp shoreline by running the genset (while connected to the PP); The system is split. (That's the reason why I prefer to describe it as a "split system") There may be inherent problems running 220 appliances at campgrounds that advertise "50 amp service", since they are not advertising "220" volt service and phase may be a problem. In fact at most smaller parks, if you were to call ahead for a reservation asking if they had 220 service, they would probably tell you empathically: "no". If you catch them before they hang up and ask if they have "50 amp service", they may tell you that they do! Don't question or suggest that 50 amp service is really 220v service unless you like listening to a dial-tone... As always on these threads, we have the engineers vs. the "know nothings".. Amazingly, the "no nothings" usually have the practical experience and common sense to know what's happening in the "real world".. For those that don't.........trust your gifted common sense! Engineered design is only a template in the mind of an engineer....... | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
"There may be inherent problems running 220 appliances at,campgrounds that advertise "50 amp service", since they are not advertising "220" volt service and phase may be a problem." So are you suggesting that these campgrounds provide 50 amps on only one leg of a standard 50-amp connector? I've never heard of this. If so, how is it determined which leg will be hot? -Sean | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Wow. I thought we covered all of this on another thread? We habitually stay in the smaller parks at more obscure places and have found that "50 amp service" -does not- mean that you have "50 amps on each leg" as too many engineers here seem to believe really exist off their drawing boards.. What we -have- found, is that many, many parks simple provide two legs of whatever service they have always had, to allow RVrs with 50 amp plugs, to be able to connect to... Anything from two 15 amp circuits, to a combination of a 20 and a 30 amp circuit. I have never, in all our roaming, have ever found any campground, anyplace, that has even suggested in the most remote manner, that they provide "100 amp service"... or that they provide "220 volt service". At campgrounds that did have "50 amp service" and where I noted that each breaker was rated for 50 amps, it still does not provide "100 amps" to any specific 110 volt outlet... So it's easy to confuse people when they hear that 100 amp service is provided. It might be if you were using 220 volts to your dryer and had the combination of the two legs supplying the 220 voltage. And to further confuse, is the common use of the term "50 amp service". Since the service is "split", only a maximum of 50 amps -could- be had at any given 110v outlet.... And -only if- the breaker, wire and outlet were all rated for "50 amps" (that means a special outlet that only a "50 amp" plug would fit). The "50 amps" (or 30 amps) is supplied to the RV fuse panel (breaker box) and distributed via individual 15 amp circuits to each outlet in the RV. The "extra" power to the box allows you to use more outlets simultaneously, not more power at any individual outlet. (simple?) We have found that at every park we have stayed that had "50 amp service", both legs indeed were connected and "live". The amount of power available varied greatly, as did the voltage. At a few parks, we would have trouble running either the front or rear Air conditioner... A quick check with the meter showed why... as low as 80 volts at times... The "other half" of the RV had full 110v.. There was no breaker for each "leg", only one 30amp breaker. I feel safe to assume they ran a 15 amp line to provide the other leg" and likely used the same line for multiple sites. And as one of the engineers here said in an earlier post.. phasing of true 220 volt service may be important if you're using 220. "Well..... what's phasing?" The more complex the explanations get here, the more confused a reader will be... (like me) To any camper, "50 amp service" means only that they can run both air conditioners at the same time while making coffee and waiting for the Mrs. to finish drying her hair....without popping the breakers... I always wonder why it is, that simple explanations never are good enough? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
JTNG, OK, let's just say that your experiece and mine vary greatly. I have never, ever in all the time I have been camping, encountered a 4-wire "50-amp" outlet wired to anything other than a 50-amp 2-pole breaker. Sure, I've been at plenty of campgrounds that did not offer 50-amp service. Every one of these provided only a 3-wire, 30-amp receptacle (usually on the same pedestal with a 20-amp receptacle). Your assertion that coaches all have "split systems" and would draw only perhaps "50 amps at 120v" is just plain incorrect -- plenty of high-end coaches will use more power than that. (The wisdom of owning such a coach is a separate discussion.) Also, it is very confusing to talk about "100 amps" as you did in the last post. Of course you can't get 100 amps out of a 50-amp service. But you CAN draw 50 amps at 240 volts. You can do this, BTW, even if everything in your coach is 120 volts. It's less confusing to discuss this in terms of Watts, rather than Amps. A 4-wire, 50-amp service delivers 12,000 watts. If you're coach is wired properly, you can use all 12,000 watts to run 120-volt appliances. By contrast, a 30-amp service delivers only 3,600 watts -- less than a third as much power. The type of service you have described, backing a "50-amp" receptacle with a 30-amp single pole and a 20-amp single pole breaker, would deliver only 6,000 watts. This arrangement, BTW, is absolutely illegal in all 50 states. It creates a serious life safety issue, and can damage equipment. So it amazes me that any campground operator would take the liability risk of wiring a receptacle this way. Of course, I've seen some pretty stupid and dangerous things in campgrounds, so I don't doubt that *some* campgrounds have done this dangerous and illegal thing. But how widespread is that? Also, you keep bringing up the subject of "phasing". Technically, a 120/240 service is single-phase. The concept of phase only comes in with 3-phase power systems. Household and RV power (and campground wiring) is center-tapped 240. The center tap is the neutral, and you get 120 on each "leg." It's all the same phase. Some people like to think of the legs as "180 degrees out of phase", but really they are just opposite halves of the same sine wave. Lastly, if you wire power from the same leg to both "hot" sides of the same 50-amp receptacle, the neutral current will add rather than subtract. So if you did this with, for example, two 30-amp breakers, the return current could be as much as 60 amps, thus overloading the wiring (and possibly other components). There is no overload protection on the neutral, so this would go undetected (one of the reasons why this practice is illegal). A safe (but still illegal in many places) way to deliver half of the power, but on both sides of the receptacle, is to use a single 50-amp, single-pole breaker and tie both sides of the receptacle to it. This ensures that both sides of the distribution are always at the same potential, and a trip trips everything. Since only 50 amps is delivered to the hot side, only 50 amps can return on the neutral. I consider myself to be "any camper," and, to me, 50-amp service means I get a full 12kw, to use any way I see fit. If they only want to give me 6kw, they should provide separate 30 and 20 amp receptacles, and not play games with the wiring. I can make fire marshalls appear out of the woodwork in less than a day in almost every state. -Sean | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
May I add just a little clarification. The only electrical distribution system in the US providing 240/120 volts is provided by two legs of a 240 volt delta connected three phase transformer. The three phases are normally called phases A, B and C. These phases are 120 degrees apart from each other, Therefore they are out of phase with each other. In a campground, any two of these phases are utilized to provide the 240 volts. This can be from A-B, B-C or C-A. Between any of these two points, 240 volts is available. Now what typically happens is that two of the phases, for example A and B are fed to a single phase distribution transformer. This transformer is center tapped and the tap identified generally as neutral. Now, between A and N or between B and N, 120 volts is available. Since these voltages are coming off the two outer ends of the transformer, they are 180 degrees apart, always. So, thest two voltages are 180 degrees apart, wiile the three voltages between phases A, B and C are 120 degrees apart. Confusing huh? Other parts of the park will be fed with different distribution transformers receiving power fron phases B and C or A and C to keep the three phase load on the utility distribution system balanced. One of the biggest problems I had in the luxury boat market was trying to get enough shore power to the yachts. Shore cords are typically 100 amp cords and many times two or more were required to provide enough power to the yacht. Many time we would have to go down the dock two or three piers to find another source of 240 volts that was in phase with the power available at the dock the yacht was moored at. Richard | ||
| John that poorguy Rating: N/A |
Sean- re: "I consider myself to be "any camper," " How about "any affluent camper" ? No, I didn't intend that as an insult. There's no shame in having a deep pocket and no shame in allowing it to show. But if you haven't been "slumming" in the not-so-well-to-do parks, then you have no clue to what you're missing. Try staying in the old campgrounds that were originally designed for those small Scotty trailers; where you aren't offered a tennis court and pool. Where they're real reluctant to let you try to maneuver anything over 30'... We've been to no less than three Gov parks that had 50 amp service through two breakers: 20amp and 30amp. Call the ranger! I'm sure there are dozens of "lurkers" here that can reassure you that what I tell you is out there, is indeed out there. And out there in the magnitude that will probably startle you into peeing in your pants. We'll call you PeePants Sean, thereafter. (HAR) Cheers..... | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
What about 4 wire 3 phase you pull 120 off any of the 3 hots with the 1 nutral . I dont know but some newer campgrounds may have this so mixing cords of two smaller sized pluged in to one box may get you 240 whan you think your getting 120. I dont think I will try to get more amps with adpaters. I have two cords a smaller one for 20 amps and a larger one for 50 amps and will just use the one the box will supply. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Brian, this is commonly referrred to as a "Y" connection and the output is 208/120 volts, not 240. 208 between any two of the phases and 120 from A B or C to the common neutral. Imagine a capital Y with a central connection output at the junction of the legs of the Y and the output taken from the A, B and C points of the Y. Some what different than the Delta configuration as the 120 volt legs are 120 degrees out of phase unlike the Delta 120 volt outputs that are 180 degrees out of phase. Works great for distributing 120 volt power to a large facility that has lots of computers and other 120 volt loads. Most large computer and bank complexes and similiar type facilities are wired this way. Many times three phase 480 volts (or higher) voltage is brought into the building and then stepped down to 208/120 with generally an isolation transformer on each floor. Richard | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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"How about "any affluent camper" ? No, I didn't intend that as an insult. There's no shame in having a deep pocket and no shame in allowing it to show. But if you haven't been "slumming" in the not-so-well-to-do parks, then you have no clue to what you're missing." You haven't a damned clue where I camp, how deep my pockets are, or, for that matter, anything else about me, really. FWIW, we prefer to stay in the forest, which is free, and where there are no receptacles whatsoever. We stay in more state parks in one month than most people see in a decade. We often stay at WalMart and truck stops. We never stay in campgrounds that offer tennis courts and a pool. And I lived in one of those god-forsaken ancient and decrepit campgrounds you are describing full time for two years. So I invite you to keep your prejudicial opinion of who I am and how I choose to live my life to yourself. And, FWIW, I would have sent this to you privately, since I think it has no place on this board, but you steadfastly refuse to share with us your real name or any sort of email address, even one of those untraceable free ones. And as for this comment: "We'll call you PeePants Sean, thereafter," is it intended as an insult? Since I find both it AND your not-intended-as-an-insult comments insulting, boorish, and judgemental. And closing your post with "Cheers" or "Have a nice day" does nothing to mitigate this. Returning to the main topic of discussion, your suggestion that older parks designed for small travel trailers somehow need to engage in this dangerous and illegal practice makes no sense... people who stay at these parks MYSELF INCLUDED know full well that they are older parks, and we do not expect them to provide 50-amp service. That's what adaptors are for. Lastly, I issue the following challenge: Bring forth the "lurkers" who will corroborate these assertions. I'd like to see or hear some hard evidence that this problem impacts even 1% of the camp sites in the US. I've stayed in hundreds of older camp sites. Most had only 30-amp service available. Not a single one advertised 50-amp service and delivered some hokey made-up version involving two un-tied single-pole breakers. -Sean | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Ooops. OK. A public apology. Sean, I'm sorry. After visiting your well designed web site, I did form a prejudiced opinion of the type of camping you do. I am truly sorry and do truly apologize for forming an opinion without ever having met you. I do not however, apologize for the "Peepants" remark, since it was made in jest. I also take note of your somewhat hypocritical remark: "your suggestion that older parks designed for small travel trailers somehow need to engage in this dangerous and illegal practice makes no sense... people who stay at these parks MYSELF INCLUDED know full well that they are older parks, and we do not expect them to provide 50-amp service. " It's the older parks that do indeed, do some damned strange things to accommodate the "changing times". It may be unfortunate that you have not had the opportunity to stay at many of those places and experience those conditions, but to suggest that to "not expect" something and get something that wasn't expected should be acceptable, is a bit ludicrous. I too, would love to see the lurkers come forth with their experiences of poor electrical service at the parks they have visited. Especially of conditions of what you have termed: "two un-tied single-pole breakers", at any power pole providing their service. This, being the beginning of a weekend and heavier use of this board, maybe we will see some new posts regarding this topic. I welcome all comments and experiences of "logic defying" conditions that have been found at campgrounds by any reader here. It's frustrating to me as I'm sure it is to many others, to be told by someone that the conditions we have witnessed do not really exist, simply because the other person has never witnessed it. And Sean..... You can reveal any amount of data about yourself you wish. Some of us are more paranoid and hold our privacy a bit more sacred. I recently had to change ISPs and hosting services due to an overabundance of spam. When your web site that produces an income is interfered with, you manage to respect the power of the Internet a bit more than the hobbyist. Since you don't want to read the customary and complimentary signoff...... Have a shitty day. (of course I don't mean that, Sean. Have a good one. Life's too short for this BS) | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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I would like to know what park is making more money? The older park that takes all age campers and dont run you off if your not high doller looking and is allways full up? Or the high end campground that 50% of the people here can not even get into with the older looking coachs that is 90% empty? My choice is the older camp grounds that dont have all the stuffed shirt types and we are better then you type. Walmarts are fun also. If I could get away with leaving my bus in the middle of nowhere unattended for a day or so I would stay there. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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JTNG, One of the shortcomings of this medium is that it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between sarcasm and sincerity. Neither emotions nor intentions travel well in writing. I will take it on faith that the apology you've proffered is sincere, and I accept it. Note that I still feel the other remark is uncalled-for, even in jest. I don't want to beat a dead horse (or have Ian step in to thank us gentlemen again K ) on this issue, since we seem to be arguing only about extent. I have not disputed that these sorts of wiring shenanigans exist, only that they are widespread. I am certainly aware of park wiring errors that are quite common. Whatever the case, I would think twice about plugging in at a park that cares this little about safe wiring. An my previous admonishment to test any receptacle before using it still stands. My chief objection to this line of reasoning has been that this sort of weird park wiring should in any way impact the proper and safe design of a coach's electrical system. My contention is, and has always been, that folks here should be following code and safe wiring practices (and I'm not trying, here, to start the code argument again). That means either installing a 30-amp single-pole service cord, or a 50-amp two-pole cord, which, by definition, is a 240-volt service entrance. Even if, whether through adaptors or insane park wiring practices, that cord only receives a single hot leg, and/or ampacity less than 50a. The designer/builder needs to be prepared for either. With regard to privacy, I respect your right to it and your desire to remain anonymous. But you would be giving up little (or none) of it to register on this BBS and provide at least a Yahoo or Hotmail address. Your present circumstance makes it impossible for anyone to respond to you off-list for any reason. Complete anonymity also has a price -- none of us can tell if every JTNG post is even from the same individual. That makes it at least difficult to assign any credibility to them. -Sean | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Brian, I don't think any parks are making a killing. It's a tough business. But, since you asked, I think the high-dollar parks have a higher margin. You won't find any where they don't fill well enough to make money. My experience, BTW, is that few coaches are turned away even at the snootiest of parks if they look clean and sharp. My own coach is outside the rules at many of these parks. It's over 20 years old, has no RVIA sticker, and it's a bus conversion. Any one of those is enough to reject it at a lot of parks. We've never been turned away, even in the very few places where a high-dollar park was our only choice (only three places in my recent memory -- Walt Disney World, Hilton Head Island, and Las Vegas). Some bodywork and a nice paint job goes a long way. But now I gotta ask -- you wrote "If I could get away with leaving my bus in the middle of nowhere unattended for a day or so I would stay there." What is it that makes it such that you can't "get away" with this? -Sean | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"We've been to no less than three Gov parks that had 50 amp service through two breakers: 20amp and 30amp. Call the ranger" This is NOT the type service that the "high end" bunch can use. There looking for 50A PER LEG , as that is within the cap of the marine power hoses and plug ins at the top dollar "Destination" parks. These are usually reserved for the Million dollar coaches , frequently by purchasing a site. North of Key West one such place (private sites) is wired with TWO true 240V 50A plugs per site. Only a bit over $150,000 for a site, to camp with first time coach owners. Such a deal! FAST FRED | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Sean- I see this thread is going to take a life of it's own....... again... Re: "But now I gotta ask -- you wrote "If I could get away with leaving my bus in the middle of nowhere unattended for a day or so I would stay there." What is it that makes it such that you can't "get away" with this? " You're scaring me, Sean. Haven't you been to NYC, Long Island, Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, Pa., Jacksonville, Fl., or any of the other many fine, upstanding communities or their suburbs? Brian's 100% accurate. And "the middle of nowhere" isn't always far enough from "somewhere"; somewhere where you wouldn't have left it unattended.. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Yup. "Urban boondocking" is REAL dicey, which is why I'm trying to figure out how to hide a motorcycle INSIDE a coach (such as in a Buffalo's bay or in a custom "hanger bay" on the back of a Bluebird/Wanderlodge "puller" due to it's unusually strong back end). The ULTIMATE would be one of the "truck conversions" that looks as much like an industrial cargo truck as possible and has a motorcycle garage area in the back, although the living space size isn't in the same class as most buses. For a crazy example: http://www.rvclassifiedsy2k.com/show.aspx?adnum=55189 Not enough living space for my needs but you get the idea... | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Jim- HAH. Ok, if we're gonna' do it, let's do it big time! An old used Brinks armored truck conversion! (Armor anyone? http://www.armormax.com/Gallery.htm) The trouble is, they'll still steal your tires, or worse.... your fuel... (noooooooo.... not the fuuuuuuelll) | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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John, There is a "psychology" to theft and vandalism. * What looks way out of place is a target. That "crazy example" I showed does NOT look out of place in an urban area. * What looks abandoned is a target. Which is why interior lights that rotate on a semi-random basis (or a radio left on) are popular theft deterrents. It's also why an "unfinished looking" bus like Brian's is potentially a target - not so much thieves as kiddie/teen vandals. (Classic example: guy in an expensive powerboat has to beach it for some reason, has to leave it on the beach overnight, comes back to find it completely trashed. Not very much stolen but some gang of teens had just gone loony with baseball bats. This happened years ago in the San Francisco coastal suburbs area.) * What looks EASY is a target. Expensive bike sitting on a back bumper rack is easy. * What they don't know about isn't going to get hit - the motorcycle run up a ramp and into the coach doesn't get stolen even if there's ZERO locks used. * What looks expensive is a target. Want a high-end paint job with fancy swirling graphics for that "modern Monaco look", or a good clean functional plain white paint job? Psychology matters more than armor. | ||
| John that shrinkguy Rating: N/A |
Yeah. Psychology. That's the ticket. That's why I leave a sign on my RV door when we go out, that says: "Be right back. Gone to get ammo." | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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 Or there's the classic trick of shouting back into the rig "Honey, I'll be back soon, you wanted low fat milk?" or something just before closing the door...when you're alone. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
"Don't forget there's a round in the chamber, Honey", works much better! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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"You're scaring me, Sean. Haven't you been to NYC, Long Island, Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, Pa., Jacksonville, Fl., or any of the other many fine, upstanding communities or their suburbs?" Not sure how this is relevant to my question, which, BTW, I was hoping *Brian* would answer. I don't consider any of these places "the middle of nowhere," and Brian is from Klamath Falls -- things are different out here in the west. I can't think of anyplace in Oregon where I would hesitate to park my coach and walk away from it for a day (unlike any of the cities you listed). Since you asked, I've been to all those places. I worked in the Bronx, in Hunts Point. I've been relieved of my wallet by a mugger in Pittsburgh, in the Hill district. I grew up in New Jersey, and I commuted into NY through the Port Authority bus terminal (which gives me someting in common with all those NJ transit MC-9s and Eagle 20's) to get on the damned subway every day. (I rode in on a GM fishbowl, not that you asked.) I didn't read anything into Brian's post that suggested he felt insecure... but then, I didn't understand the "get away with" comment. Which is why I asked about it. Somehow, that simple question turned this thread into a security rant right out of Guns&Ammo... -Sean | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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Sean, The biggest fear is the abandoned look that will lead to theft and vandalism. If I parked in the middle of no where. A 24 hour wal mart would be fine but I would only guess I could get away with it for a day or so before they run me off. I was planing on putting on some more primer today but it snowed last night and unless it warms up quick thats not goning to happen. I would think you could park a high doller looking coach in the middle of no where and get a way with it but a primered up it would not take long before some one starts shooting at it and strips off all the aluminion. Even in the middle of a big city I would say it would take only 24hr or less before some trys to steal the Batts or trys to take the gen set. Its too bad this country has so meny ass holes and losers the dont give a shit about others peoples stuff. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon Heading to the third world country of Portland/Vancover Monday. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
In most places where the State is Daddy, The motto is , "If you can't Steal it DESTROY it!" A "socal justice" thing, FAST FRED |
