| Author |
Message |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 1:29 am: | |
With fuel prices on the rise and predictions of more to come, I have been reading a little on biodiesel and vegetable oil conversions. I know that this is somewhat controversial, but some sites claim that if done right, there is no real downside. Does anyone here have any knowledge on the subject? Also, are Detroits as likely a candadate as various 4 cycles. |
Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 2:39 am: | |
I don't have answers, but I can maybe help define the question:
"Biodiesel" is chemically processed veggie oil that is now a true substitute for pump diesel. Or at least that's the theory.
"Waste Veggie Oil" (WVO) is strained but otherwise straight from the KFC or whatever deep fry tank. It must be pre-heated before use and used only in a warm emgine, so you have to run two tanks - one with "real diesel" or at least biodiesel that you start out on and a second with the WVO that needs to get heated either electically or with radiator hose run round and round that tank. (Some run engine water through a second radiator "dunked in" the WVO but leakproofing becomes a MAJOR issue!) You switch to WVO when both the engine and WVO tanks are warmed up some.
These are *different* technologies and shouldn't be confused. |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 7:46 am: | |
We just purchased a bunch of trucks that are labled "Bio-diesel only" don't have much experience with them yet as they are new and still being outfitted for our fleet but if there is no difference between Bio and regular diesel, it's going to be a joke. There are only three bio-diesel fueling stations in town, at remote locations, and we have fuel pumps with diesel right on site...
Brian |
Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 7:49 am: | |
Hi Lin,
Type "biodiesel" into the board's search engine for lots of interesting comments.
From the Google search bar in the left navigation frame type in "biowillie" for Willie Nelson's, yes, Willie Nelson's promotional stuff.
And if it isn't mentioned elsewhere, try this link for the best web site I've seen on the topic - http://www.greasel.com
Ian
www.busnut.com |
gillig-dan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 9:30 am: | |
Bio-diesel can be made from waste vegetable oil. It would cost about a buck a gallon to produce. The biggest cost is the methynol needed in the conversion process. A few months back, I figured it wouldn't be worth the hastle to produce it. With the price of diesel these days, I find myself pondering the issue again.
Biodiesel purchased from the pump costs even more than regular diesel. The only reason to use it is to be a good citizen.
Brian, I wonder what makes those trucks "bio-diesel only". The two fuels are nearly identical. They have very slightly different burn times. Biodiesel can be optimized by changing your timing a couple degrees. Sound kinda like a marketing thing??
I'm no expert on this but, I did stay at a Holiday Inn....
Gillig-Dan |
Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 10:44 am: | |
I seriously investigated the use of bio-diesel and WVO.
For me, the former isn't available locally and the latter isn't practical.
I had a long conversation with one of the principals involved with greasal.com. He was very enlightening.
As far as I am concerned, WVO is a super idea if you can make it work for yourself. The major problem I encountered was the fact I use more fuel in most weeks than most people with WVO powered cars use in a year.
The logistics of gathering, straining, filtering, and storing enough WVO made WVO a non-starter for me. No matter how much I wanted it to work.
The number one problem to making it work for me is all of the fryers in town combined don't produce enough WVO in a week to keep our bus running for a week.
It is one thing to fill up with ten gallons of WVO for a VW Rabbit that will then go 500 miles. It is a whole different equation when you need to find 100 gallons of WVO for a motorcoach that will then go 500 miles. And then multiply that out for just 2000 miles per month.
The logistics of finding enough fryers to supply me with enough WVO was nothing compared with outfitting a truck with tanks and pumps and a heated storage tank at home to refill the bus tanks.
I could see myself spending at least one day per week doing nothing but drive around getting "free" fuel. At that point I decided that the "free" fuel was going to get pretty expensive for me.
Add into the equation that as a commercial operator I could still be held liable for the appropriate amount of road taxes and it became apparent WVO just wasn't worth the effort for me.
Again, I think in certain applications it would be a great way to get around high fuel prices. But IMHO it is only practical if the volume of WVO that you are using is in the tens of gallons and not in the hundreds of gallons.
Mark O. |
John Feld (Deacon)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 12:48 pm: | |
I agree with Mark O, useing WVO or BIO-Diesel is not for everyone, it can be messy and does require time and support equiptment, but the reward is saving money. In my case I look at it this way, I can work for XX.X amount per hour and buy Diesel, or collect and prepare WVO for around .10-.20 cents per gallon vs. 2.00 plus per gallon for diesel. The mileage and power remain the same.
Yes, the conversion has a cost, so does everything we add to a shell to make it a motorhome, but this is something that has a payback!
More and more people are willing to collect and filter WVO around the country and the going price is 1.00 or less per gallon. I am currentl designing a large 700 gallon tank for the rear bay in my 4106 which will give me a cruise range of 5,600 miles without having to refuel on the road. That will be at a cost of around $73.50 or $0.105 per mile.
Join our yahoo group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wvobus
John F
P 4106 & 4104 |
gillig-dan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 4:26 pm: | |
So,
If properly used, has anyone out there using WVO ever experienced any engine problems from its use? I know the system has to be flushed with diesel prior to shutdown. If I had to carry 700 gallons of fuel, I'd have trouble making it up the mountains. But, knowing it was free, I guess I could put up with that... I was thinking that I could put an onboard filtering system in the engine compartment so I wouldn't have to carry so much.
I have access to a 200 gallon tank that would fit under the bed and would be right over the rear axle. I also have a couple heat exchangers from some industrial AC units.
It looks like I could build a unit for next to nothing. I would just get nervous putting anything but diesel in my freshly overhauled engine. It was one thing when I screwed up my ink-jet printer with aftermarket ink; that was $200 down the black tank. Another engine overhaul is not in the budget.
I would like to get some more real-world experiences with WVO.
Gillig-Dan |
Macgyver (91flyer)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 5:04 pm: | |
Heh, you think aftermarket ink is a problem... I bought genuine Canon ink carts, and they totally screwed the printer. No ink ever flowed through it again, and it had only had 2 rounds of cartridges through it.
I vowed never to buy another Canon or any printer that didn't replace the print heads with every ink cart change. HP has a much better idea than Canon ever thought of having!
But, to be on topic... I fully intend to do a WVO conversion on my own bus when the time is right... Hopefully, processing technologies will be better by the time I get back from Iraq.
-Mac |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 6:08 pm: | |
Just out of curiosity....
If some converted bus owners are afraid to use "off road diesel"
in their tanks for fear of some gestapo tactic that will surely end
with their incarceration..... Why is using untaxed, used veggie oil
to propel the converted bus on gov roads perfectly legal?
(hoo-boy. This is gonna' be good) |
Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 7:56 pm: | |
Because Biodiesel/WVO isn't considered "diesel". It's basically classed as an experimental fuel.
Lookit, anybody can take a registered car or bus and run it off of some bizarre new fuel that isn't popular yet and "dodge the tax". People do that with compost-heap methane, wood alchohol, hydrogen, propane, electricity (batteries powered from the grid, no tax there either), LNG, God only knows what else.
Biodiesel and WVO are in the same category.
Now, you may have to do some fast talking to explain that it's straight outta the Kentucky Fried Chicken dunk tank...but the smell alone should be convincing enough... |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 9:45 pm: | |
Fill it with Dunkin' Donuts grease and you'll have every cop in
the world following you. |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 11:33 pm: | |
Personally, I do not think of WVO as being that great. Right now, there is probably a lot of free stuff around, but if a lot of people start doing it, that will change. Plus there are apparently problems with acidity in some oils that corrode engine parts, not to mention the messy work of collection, etc. However, SVO (straight vegetale oil) as the fresh stuff is called, may be a less risky option. I came across this site today that seemed to have a lot of good information.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
One of the things it claims is that not only are different oils better or worse, but some engines may be better suited to it. For example, it says that DI is preferable to IDI. Also that inline injector pumps are preferable to rotary injection pumps, and that Lucas/CAV injector pumps have a high failure rate. How do Detroits fit into this? I ask because this will be a consideration if I decide to buy a new ride. |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 11:41 pm: | |
Sorry, I got it backwards in the above post. IDI is preferable to DI. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 11:46 pm: | |
So I guess so many of us will be trying to use WVO that the fast food places will be able to start selling it. Beware of too much demand. |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 12:19 am: | |
I do not think that all fast food oil would be usable. Some sites suggest that the premium waste oil is from Chinese restaurants. The McSlop stuff may be to contaminated. |
Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 12:51 am: | |
The BEST waste oil comes from liposuction cosmetic surgery clinics. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 1:27 am: | |
Lin-
"Some sites suggest that the premium waste oil is from Chinese
restaurants."
Yeah, but an hour later and you're looking for more fuel.... |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 1:31 am: | |
Jim-
"The BEST waste oil comes from liposuction cosmetic surgery clinics."
With that, it'd be just another half-fast trip... |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 1:38 am: | |
Apparently Hennie Youngman has returned as a busnut! |