| Author | Message | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: |
Yeah its almost that time sides will be finished this coming week, ready for me to pick them up. If anyone ever replaces the siding on a Prevost, i know the sticker shock from the factory on aluminum siding replacing the windows, i bought only one to use for a template, then found a place in Columbus to make me 9 more sections, i did all of this for about a third of the factory price.............but back to the topic, i've built many race cars and i have installed thousands of rivets, but still i'm not familiar with buck or other rivets used on buses, i'm not sure which one to use where, or if i need new tools, like a rivet shaver, or a hole finder(no dogs not that kind!)I sure could use some input.................thanks guys! | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Aircraft spruce & Specialty has a catalog , and low priced items you need. A butter soft triggered rivet set , any size head setup and the slicer are there for amateur pricing. The stuff is fine , and will build many RV's but if your going into competition with Boeing , you will wear the stuff out in a year or two. {3rd shift is hell on tools) REAL rivets have what is needed to hold a coach together , pop rivets are to hold light NON STRUCTURAL toys in place. FAST FRED | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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I used to work for Titan trailer...I was the painter....but would watch the guys occasionaly ..on my way to the paint booth...it was interisting...& noticed many things that I would never have guessed...The rivet gun was like a air chisl/muffler tool & had a insert in it with the specic concave contoure of the rivet head you were useing...the 'bucker'...was inside the trailer...with the bucking bar...(terrible job.)..like being inside a bell....there is a VERY certain amount of time that the rivet gun was 'on'...overdoing it was BAD the time the gun was 'on' was important & it was only long enough to swell the rivet...they would have a whole row of holes...maybe 200...start in the center & work outward...they had 'some' way of comunicateing (?)...the guy with the bucking bar HAD to be on the correct rivet..at the time the hammer guy pulled the trigger...I do not envy you..in this job...but...good luck | ||
| Rich International Bus & Parts
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We carry many versions of rivets. Buck Rivets (need special tooling & can only be used in areas that have access to front & back of panel.) Monobolts (structural "pop" type rivet), Q Rivet (standard "pop" type rivet), we have stainless steel & aluminum versions, 1/4" & 3/16" diameter & different grip ranges, umbrella caps to give a rounded exterior look, Prevost rivets, polished rivets, etc....Make sure you are taking "electrolosis" into consideration. And using adhesives like Sika Flex can add a whole new dimension. Hope this helps....... Rich International Bus & Parts 800-468-5287 | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
2D, You do it by sound. A true rivet gun is to a air chisel like a chainsaw is to a scapel. Don't try to rivet with an air chisel. Air pressure is also very significant. You want to drive (swell) the rivet quickly and efficiently without over smashing it. For real "quality" work, flush riveting on a polished skin, I would drive the rivet from the back with a spring loaded insert to the rivet gun and tape on the bucking bar on the out "pretty" side. The spring sleeve on the driver kept the skins together insuring a high quality fastening. I had the best luck with "fresh" rivets. Aged rivets workharden simply by sitting in their container. They can be annealed but the temp range and conditions are critical - a 25 deg temp window in a range up above 900, IIRC . The process is beneficial. But the difference is startling. 4 slow "blops" from the gun at 40 psi vs a 5 sec. burst (Brrrrrrrrrrrrp) at 80 psi reduces skin distortion and really cuts down on the noise. BTW 2Ds, what are you doing up at 4:00AM? - finishing off another night of drunken debauchery? LOL! | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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much misunderstood...DO NOT drink... AND ....WRONG ...the pretty side..rounded rivet head goes on the outside & rivet LENTH is REAL important...depending on the two thicknesses of metal.... My t.v. went out...got to buy a new one today...cannot sleep unless the t.v. is on...or the diesel is running...& since I switched to two stroke...no ideling a DD........ | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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speaking of chainsaw....don't EVER go into TWO JACKS bar in Honolulu with less than one chainsaw | ||
| Sojourner (Jjimage)
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I@n...what happen to "search in archives"??? about riveting; Steve 80 Crown Atomic come my mind. An old BB rivet pro and has help many but nuts of the past. I and Jack Conrad did all solid-riveting of Orange Blossom II in pre-propane 110 degree heat large paneling to minimize waves. However for window cover is not necessary 110º F but best to be very warm metal(expanded) before fastening. Rivet Bucking require two people. It best for beginner to practice on bench first to learn the art. Then cut thru middle to compare if you want be sure riveting correctly. Look for straight, sandwich tight (hard-to-turn metal) and neat works. Rivet gun is short mini stroke type. Usually e-bay has good buys. Set your air regulator for proper “hammering” for alum rivet. Main point is to practice few times before on coach. Bucker person is the one who yell to “STOP”. Bucker has to hear the proper conditioning before stop. You can use Cleco or cheaper still using alum blind (pop) rivet and partially pulled just to keep sheet metal in place until it not needed then remove. Drive pin thru & drill out to remove pop rivet. Cleco; E-Bay has them but usually worn out. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/to/sheetmetaltools.html Link from Tom Hall site; http://users.cwnet.com/~thall/riveting.htm http://www.rvproject.com/rivets.html Good one to follow; http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-86-12.html#2 Sample drawing to make your own such as “TB605” and any other that meet your configured need. Made from “hot” or “cold” roll bar steel. Your common bucking bar for bus in 1”x2”x4” with smooth surface on one end, side & large area. Cold roll is already smooth with cutting wheel cut-off. Narrow ones is ½”x 2”x 8” and so on. You may need “off set” to get behind squeeze place with is a piece ½” or thinner welded off-center on end of 1”x 1” x 10”. http://www.ustool.com/usstore.asp?WCI=wciCategory&WCE=7 FWIW Sojourn for Christ, Jerry | ||
| david anderson (Davidanderson)
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Sojourner, You have to check the "search by keyword" box to make the search function work. It threw me off for a while. I thought it was shut down until I figured that out. David Anderson | ||
| Steve 80 Crown Atomic Rating: N/A |
Oh Geez, Time to circle the wagons, cause a bunch of these fine folks are gonna wanna scalp me after this post. Some good advice and some things I’d have to disagree with. My experience is primarily 15+ years of aircraft structural repair, rebuilding everything from crashed planes to radical mods, plus working on bus conversions, trucks, buildings, and boats. Shot a few hundred thousand rivets, of many many types. Got about every sheet metal tool known to mankind, even the factory-only tools. If you’ve built race cars of Indy quality, you probably have a good familiarity with proper sheet metal construction and basic blind riveting. If those cars were for the local dirt track, a higher quality of riveting is needed for a bus, even if your skins are not structural. Solid riveting is a bit trickier but not rocket science (it’s aircraft science). However, it’s like painting or welding, dozens of ways to screw it up, without even trying, and your first attempts ain’t gonna be pretty. Aircraft Spruce & Specialty was a great source for aircraft homebuilders when it first came out, cause there was no internet and builders didn’t have a clue where to get supplies and tooling. Today, AS&S has a wide variety of products, but their prices are extremely high retail. I get all the catalogs from aviation suppliers and the SAME tool in AS&S is often 20%-50% higher than the other catalogs. They’re just taking advantage of homebuilder’s lack of knowledge. The other catalog tool sellers are all full retail price, even The Yard has gone to mostly full retail. Aircraft Tool Supply is selling some copycat tools that are imported, pure trash. I buy most of my tools from Ebay, but only from a few sources. There are 40-50 aircraft tool sellers there, but many are selling the worn out junk the factories toss in the trash bins. Been ripped off about 50 times in my 750+ tool purchases. Prices were rock bottom a year ago, but have risen substantially since then. I’ve given away most of my duplicate tools to other busnuts, but let me know what you need and I’ll look in my tool truck. Never compared a “real rivet” to an “unreal rivet”, but there are basically two kinds of rivets. Solid rivets, and blind rivets (also called mechanical rivets). Each one has distinct advantages, and each can be found in a variety of strengths for most applications. The blind rivets (pop rivets) found at the corner hardware store/Home Depot, and the “A” type solid rivets are too weak for hanging bus skins. Up to about 2 years ago, aerospace quality blind rivets were being substituted one-for-one for solid rivets when repairing aircraft, then some people started getting stupid about it and the FAA required manufacturer approval for substitution. Basic description of solid riveting is this. Ensure the panels are clamped tightly to the framework, holes are neat and not oversized too much. Select proper size/shape/length/strength rivet. Select proper size AND weight of bucking bar. Use a quality pneumatic riveting hammer (looks like an air chisel but definitely isn’t) set to the exact air pressure needed and add a rivet set that matches the rivet. Standard practice is to turn all variables into constants except one, time. The “riveter” places the hammer/set onto the rivet head, and pulls the trigger for about a one-second burst. The “bucker” uses moderate pressure to keep the bucking bar on the rivet shank. The blows from the hammer are transferred to the bar via the rivet, and the slapping motion of the bar actually hammers the rivet shank into a head. The bucker examines the newly formed head and tells the riveter if another burst is needed. Now, there are several other ways to form a shop head onto a rivet shank, as mentioned above, but this is the primary method. Marc is right. When everything else is a constant, you use your ears to determine when the rivet has received a long enough burst. “Electrolysis” as mentioned above, refers to dissimilar metal corrosion, such as using aluminum rivets to attach stainless skins to a steel frame. A potential corrosion problem that can be avoided in several ways. Sikaflex can replace a lot of rivets, but I haven’t played with it on a bus yet. I use structural adhesives on aircraft frequently. Regarding the link about making a rivet swelling tool. IMO, that probably worked sometimes, for aircraft in wartime 60 years ago. But bus skins are typically thicker and of stronger materials that aircraft skins. If you’re good with a drill, you can remove and reshoot a solid rivet 4-5 times without seriously oversizing the hole. However, if you’ve failed after 3 riveting attempts, it’s really time to change something. I’ve never had a problem using old solid rivets, even ones from 1968. My manufacturing manuals state that age hardening begins after the rivet has been hit with the hammer, and my riveting experience confirms this. Icebox rivets are an exception, but nobody uses those anymore unless they have seriously boxed themselves into an engineering corner or, as Marc mentioned, you want a flawless finish on extremely thin skins. Skin distortion can be a cosmetic problem on aircraft where skins are as thin as .016, but shouldn’t be a factor in bus riveting because the skins are so much thicker/stronger. .016 aluminum is so thin, I can crumple it with my bare hands. Before you spend $$$ on that rivet shaver, look at some other, much cheaper tools that will do a similar job. Was up at the Boeing plants 2 weeks ago, watched them building a stretched 747 for some Sheik. Still using the same riveting method described here. Interior was more gaudy than a 1970s bordello. Gold-plated toilets anyone? Heck, with his money, they were probably 22k solid gold toilets. Where are you located? Someone with experience can definitely help you avoid many problems. Vern Rainville. and I had a long discussion on blind riveting, about 10-15 pages worth. He flush riveted his coach with CherryMax blind rivets, a top quality, but very finicky rivet to use. I think he’s on the East coast, I’m in NM. “TWANG” (sound of arrow hitting the buckboard) TWANG TWANG TWANG TWANG TWANG TWANG TWANG TWANG TWANG TWANG THWACK! THUD. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Holy crap. Makes ya' wanna' use screws. | ||
| vern rainville
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Hi Steve, how are things? Good to see you posting again.Steve is an expert on riveting.He also has a very good memory. Yes, I am using the Cherry Max Blind rivets. Yup, they are pricey. They started at .98 cents each about 9-10 months ago and now,they have jumped to $1.36 each. Ouch! I used about 1,000 rivets and still have to change about 75 of them. Mostly because of operator error. You do need to practice with them. You need a good hole. You need some way of clamping them together or heavy pressure of the metal to the frame. I have had the pleasure of Steve,s guidence for the riveting portion and am grateful I did. Even with Steve's guidence, there is no substitute for experiance. If I can help someone onthe east coast (I am in RI),just call my cell. 1 401 265 1056 Vern(in RI) | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
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This is why i come to this excellant site, i love the opinions, experience can't be bought, asking questions never hurts, Steve, Marc, i appreciate the time and effort in answering my questions! Pat | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Pay attention to Rich and get a good structural blind rivet. They are called "Industrial" as I recall. The main thing is to get the type that fills the inside of the rivet as it is pulled. They come in many metal combinations also. Hollow rivets are not worth much on anything structural. You really don't want to mess with bucking rivets unless you already have lots of experience and a very understanding bucker. It is boring, noisy and difficult to do properly. The required learning curve is not worth it with the small job you have. If you should decide to go with bucking rivets please note all the advice about holes and keeping the two pieces tightly together while bucking. If you don't fill the hole and keep the two pieces together the rivet is useless. Filling the hole completely and tightly is the only way the rivet can return the drilled metal to its original strength. As you have seen in other posts the price of aircraft blind rivets is ridiculous and not necessary for your use. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Gusc, You sell yourself short. A few minutes with Steve or myself and you'd be in fine shape for riveting. Maybe Jack will make arrangements for an air compressor at Bussin 2006 and Steve and I can give a riveting demo. ????? I forgot to mention the importance, with aluminum sheet, of deburring the hole, both sides, before shooting your rivet. It avoids stress risers and cracking of the sheet -stretched from the swelling of the rivet. Steve, I haven't had the luck you've experienced with the 17ST rivets. I can anneal them and, if kept with dry ice, they'll retain the "anneal". If I leave them at room temp and they harden. But it takes years for the following . . . I had the shank on a long AN-4 rivet shear rather than swell on me. It was fresh, never driven. Go figure. Then, there's hand and pneumatic rivet squeezers. Onward and Upward Moi | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Marc, As an aircraft mechanic of many years I have no problems with rivets but for his job it isn't worth his time and expense to mess with aircraft methods. I always use blind rivets on aircraft for small jobs when possible. This is not rocket science. Blind rivets--no air compressor, no rivet gun, no bucking bars, no bucking helper, a one person operation and as much structural strength as he will ever need. I would recommend he get some Clecos but they aren't really necessary. To anneal anything non-ferrous just heat and quench. | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
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Gus thanks for this post above me, and your right it isn't rocket science, sometimes i enjoy the technical aspect, sometimes i enjoy the sheer experience of just doing it, it keeps me occupied, Clecos i have more than i probably should have...........LOL! Thanks again! | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Pat, Good luck on the job. I find a lot of these posts get so involved in science and technology they lose sight of the simple way of doing things and sometimes of the original question. There is no shortage of opinions but not always a lot of factual info. I don't do much extensive aircraft sheetmetal work, usually just small jobs, and it always takes me a while to get back into the swing of it. This is the reason I use pop rivets when possible, easy and fast. Major aircraft sheetmetal work is a specialty unto itself and the aircraft mechanics who are REALLY good at it do it full time. | ||
| Kelly Phelps
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My company needs to install rivets in Boeing and Airbus reference standards used for Non-Destructive Test inspections of aircraft structure. We manufacture eddy current probes, ultrasonic transducers and reference standards. Any tips on tooling (and where to get it) and techniques will be appreciated. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Probably easiest to go to the local mid sized airport and find a FBO (fixed base operator) that has a great tin knocker on staff or on call. An hour or two of demonstrations of the PROPER aircraft methods would do , as would the recomendations on tool sources and techniques. If you need "Da Book" to be used for information or proofing the FAA has many tecnical manuals that could be a guide. Real aircraft work is a much finer art and skill than just banging rivets in a bus. The EAA (experimental aircraft assocation) also has a fine web site with many instructional books and access to Experts . When you figure out how to do NDT on laminates , be sure to tell Airbus , the tails keep falling off, their cheap subsadized garbage, killing folks. FAST FRED | ||
| Kelly Phelps Rating: N/A |
Makes you wonder what will happen with their A380, Huh? Obviously I am not doing structural work but I do need them to look "pretty." |
