| Author |
Message |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:45 am: | |
After the Terri Schiavo case, an NBC poll showed that 71% of US citizens said the govermant had no business in matters like this. Here is a Living Will form that can be used so it does not happen to you.
I,__________________(fill in the blank), being of sound mind and body, do not wish to be kept alive indefinitely by artificial means.
Under no circumstances should my fate be put in the hands of peckerwood politicians who couldn't pass ninth-grade biology if their lives depended on it.
If a reasonable amount of time passes and I fail to sit up and ask for a shot of Jack Daniels, it should be assumed that I won't do so ever again. When such a determination is reached, I hereby instruct my spouse, children and attending physicians to pull the plug, reel in the tubes and call it a day.
Under no circumstances shall members of the legislature enact a special law to keep me on life-support machinery. It is my wish that these boneheads mind their own business, and pay attention instead to the health, education and future of the millions of Americans who aren't in a permament coma and who nonetheless may be in need of nourshiment.
Under no circumstances shall any politicians butt into this case. I don't care how many fundamentalist votes they're trying to scrounge for their run for the presidency in 2008, it is my wish that they play politics with someone else's life and leave me alone to die in peace.
I couldn't care less if a hundred religious zealots send e-mails to legislators in which they pretend to care about me. I don't know these people, and I certainly haven't authorized them to preach and/or crusade on my behalf. They should mind their own damn business, too.
If any of my family goes against my wishes and turns my case into a political cause, I hereby promise to come back from the greave and make his or her life a living hell. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:49 am: | |
Amen, Jack. Well done. |
alfred
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 8:01 am: | |
Does that mean no intraveneous Jack Daniels, either? |
P. Wood
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 8:03 am: | |
Jack's a busnut, so the whole thing would be deemed invalid simply by the "sound mind" clause. |
Craig (Ceieio)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:21 am: | |
I'll go with this once I edit it to allow medicinal Margaritas and Manhattans. And Cabernet Sauvignon. And Pinot Noir. Oh and decent micro brew as well. There, that ought to do it. |
Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 11:58 am: | |
Exactly my sentiments Jack.
Ed Jewett |
Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 1:09 pm: | |
RIGHT ON! nuf said |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 1:40 pm: | |
Actually, that's not "nuf said". Your Congressman and Senators need to be "educated" (a term they are increasingly imparting to we voters)on the matter. They certainly, for the majority of them at least, crossed the line on this one, and demonstrated their out-right disdain for the will of the people. They had a host of similar result polls on this subject before they passed their ill-fated law and my bet is that this bunch in there are not done yet on the subject. |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 2:15 pm: | |
I think you meant to say "snuff said" |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:24 pm: | |
Thank you Jack!
happy coaching, on the other side!
buswarrior |
airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:39 am: | |
Murder is still murder. FOOD is not artificial means. |
Jason Whitaker (Jeepme)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:48 am: | |
Well, here's the lady that 71% of Americans decided to let die. Not the coma state I was led to believe she was in. Anyone see this on network tv?
http://www.terrisfight.org/media/balloon.rmm
it's a real media file, I don't know anything about the website. Just did a quick google on terri Schiavo. More videos here http://www.terrisfight.org
Better add in your will that you'd rather just be killed outright instead of letting you die peaceably of hunger and dehydration. Probably wouldn't mind a bullet after a week or so without water.
Jason Whitaker
You guys must be rubbing off on me, I've always prided myself on staying out of the off topic posts. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 1:48 am: | |
Over four hours of movie shown to the courts, you see 15 seconds
repeatedly, of what very caring parents believe is a response....
Four hours of video that showed the poor soul opening her eyes
and following an invisible object... smiling, frowning, grunting, and
reaching.... when no-one was present...
More than eight specialists under sworn testimony to the courts,
testified that the poor soul has very little if any, cerebral cortex
to enable her to ever respond voluntarily to any sensation....
Repeated testing over 15 years proved her inability to ingest food
or water, necessitating the need for a tube to be inserted in her
abdomen, to supply nourishment....
The tube had been placed temporarily initially, to allow nourishment
to the body, to allow time to do further testing in an effort to find if
the poor soul had any chance of survival... It was a temporary measure
that lasted 15 years due to the parent's emotional outcries...
Not one court, but many.... studied the information in great detail,
to insure that her spouse was not going to end the life of a soul that
may have a chance otherwise...
The spouse, in all cases, can make that difficult decision legally.
It is the absolute sanctity of marriage that the conservatives espouse..
No court found the spouse to be unqualified to make that difficult
decision, regardless of the parent's emotional outcries....
If anyone could possibly imagine what it must be like to be kept in
solitary confinement; unable to discern voice from noise, light from
dark, heat from cold.... to be totally unable to make as simple of
a task as swallowing voluntarily... to be so totally isolated...
for 15 years......
Incarcerated killers are not held for more than a week in solitary
confinement, without having it considered inhuman....
You would not keep a pet that is paraplegic and devoid of all
senses, in a box with a funnel in it's belly to feed it through.....
But a human?
Her husband should be given praise for taking the most responsible
and caring action, and letting that poor soul to finally rest in peace.
Especially so, in light of the horrendous activities against him by
people that never knew, or cared about his wife as he did.
It was not an easy choice for him and it was not an instant decision;
it took years before he accepted the facts of her permanent condition
and petitioned the court to allow his wife's body to die as it would have,
if the temporary feeding apparatus were never installed into her abdomen.
And from a religious view..... If God's will were the guide, the body
would have been able to be repaired to live as a human... Instead,
artificial means were forcing the body to stay alive..
Terry's body was being forced to stay alive, entrapping her soul,
rather than to pass as it would have.... and given her peace..
There is no tougher decision to ever make, than to let another human
being die. I have had neighbors, relatives and friends tell of their
experiences. And not one feels that the decision should ever be
made by popular opinion of those that have no stake; that have
never loved the person..... an never, by a government decree made
for political gain, to force a suffering being to remain a minute longer
or a minute less.... |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 5:35 am: | |
Thic case has been GREAT for folks interested in saving the Gov. money.
AS the NY "Times" claims dieing of thirst and starvation are Euphoric, we can do away with Old Sparky , the Hangman , the Firing Squad and even the lethal injection pump.
Now we can cheaply place condemed Murderers and other scum in a cell, to be opened in 6 months , or for the next piece of trash needing to meet his Maker.
Think of the savings in witness and guard costs!
Works for me!
FAST FRED |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 6:01 am: | |
I hope everyone realizes that the above Living Will was not a "real" Living Will. However, it is very important for everyone to have a written living will.
The biggest problem with Terri's case was that there was no written living will. Only her husbands word vs. her parents word. Regardless of what YOUR wishes are, put them in writing. This can save your family much grief and expense later on. I wonder if all those attorneys for both sides worked pro bono for 15 years? Jack |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 7:54 am: | |
Jack-
The "Living Will" simplifies things only if there are no objections.
The loving parents did not want to let go and found any legal
maneuver they could, to stop the process. They wouldn't have
have done a thing different if a written wish was provided, and
the courts would have been compelled to hear the complaints
just the same.
It was a sad, sad situation, made even more sad, by the emotions
parlayed by both politicians and those that had "no dog in the fight".
May she rest in peace. |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 8:40 am: | |
JTNG - You should print that and send it to all the memebers of congress who voted aye -- Very pragmatic view of what 'actually' occured without the burden of over dramatization - It appears you've had some thought on this matter - I always enjoy getting your viewpoint -
Niles |
Jim Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 9:14 am: | |
JTNG:
You wrote:
"The spouse, in all cases, can make that difficult decision legally.
It is the absolute sanctity of marriage that the conservatives espouse..
No court found the spouse to be unqualified to make that difficult
decision, regardless of the parent's emotional outcries...."
John, if it were YOU lying there unable to say what you wanted, and your wife had started sleeping with another man after your accident, AND she had 3 children with him AND she announced on nationwide TV that she was proud of those actions, would the purity of her motives be in serious question? YOU BET THEY WOULD! In fact, in Christian perspective, Michael had abandoned their marriage (even if he was still taking care of her.) Therefore it could be (and was) argued that he should not have guardianship of her.
Everyone should also remember that the parents & MILLIONS of other people were contacting their Congressmen, Senators, President & Gov Bush to get involved. Most of the governmental acts were to delay & study the situation.
Jim-Bob |
gillig-dan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 10:42 am: | |
I'll just add as someone who has faced the situation first hand when I had to let my wife go, and even though I had moved on with my life while she was not able to be an active part of the marriage, I still felt I was best qualified to fulfill her wishes not to be kept on the machines.
Gillig-Dan |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 11:17 am: | |
I did not think this original post would get so many replys. This has probably been enough for an OT thread. I would like to sum up by saying "This is America, we should all be able to have our wishes followed (whatever that may be)if we end up in a situation like Terri. Hopefully these wishes were discussed with family, clergy and friends prior to the event and put in writing.
Once this has been done no one else should be allowed to interfere with what has to be a very difficult decision for the family to make".
My 18 year old nephew had to make this decision when my brother died and my sister-in-law was on life support. After a family discussion, it had to ultimately be his decision.
After seeing all the press coverage, politicians, and others that never knew Terri before the cardiac arrrst that caused her condition, I am glad our family was allowed to make our decision quietly.
If you want a real Living Will, you can find a form, as well as a Health Care Surrogate and Advanced Directives at http://www.flabar.org/tfb/flabarwe.nsf/840090c16eedaf0085256b61000928dc/b954f12053a410ec85 256e28005bd4a0?OpenDocument Jack |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:18 pm: | |
Thank you Jack for starting it. It's a subject that needs to be discussed and settled--with finality and without the emotions of the moment. |
Jason Whitaker (Jeepme)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 3:52 pm: | |
Niles & JTNG
I don't understand how JTNG's post is pragmatic. Your argument is based on the 'fact' that the lady was suffering and isolated. But where is the evidence that she was? A baby having the same responses as her would be considered content! It's easy to argue that its the humane thing to do but we don't know what she wants so we assume the worse and let her husband who has moved on decide her fate instead of her 'emotional' parents. Emotional outcries? They Love their daughter! That doesn't make them unable to make an informed decision.
No dramatization? quote:
You would not keep a pet that is paraplegic and devoid of all
senses, in a box with a funnel in it's belly to feed it through.....
I believe the elderly are in trouble. Many people 90+ are not in very good condition, some seem in more pain then Terri for sure and some (I think of a nursing home down the street) are not visibly more aware than Terri. They can swallow but they have to be hand fed. How long before we define hand feeding as life support?
Life is getting cheaper here in America. Now to the point that when a family is at odds as to whether or not to let a family member starve we decide that starving her is the safe thing to do.
Bottom line: get a will
Jason Whitaker 4104
Now guys I'm NOT flaming or trying to upset anyone and I since I haven't been a very active poster I REALLY hate to make some of my first posts at odds with a collection of the respected regulars. FF can, he's a respected regular! But I'm just some guy that posted a handful of times before this. In return I promise to try and let this drop and post on some ON topic subjects. Should be easy since I just removed most of the floor around my front passenger wheel well with a shop vac! :\ |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 7:09 pm: | |
Jason-
The parents did what they felt was right. They took their battle
and issues to court, and every court they took the matter to,
examined all evidence fully and denied their claims. Each and
every decision was found in favor of Terry and her husband's
right to speak for her.. That is the true definition of the sanctity
in marriage.
The parent's fight with Terry's husband was a family issue, not
a public forum, or for politicians to build a career upon.
The circus; the emotional fiasco of those that should never have
a legal recourse; the hoards of people around the world demanding
"justice" for someone who's condition will never improve.....
For Terry.... who has been unable to communicate to anyone
for 15 long years... Who's body had been forced alive by an
intrusive tube and burp-bulb inserted through her belly and into
her stomach...
-That-, Jason, is what bothered me. It is the legal right of the spouse
to make a decision for their partner in marriage when that partner
is incapacitated and unable to communicate.
My wife suffered a ruptured cerebral aneurysm. I had to decide
first to allow invasive testing; then to allow surgery. It was a life or
death decision at worst, and the testing alone could have left her
comatose. It could have ended pathetically.
No-one had the right to make the choice for her, but me. And I
would hope that no legislation is ever passed, that would keep her
from making any decisions for me, should it ever come. And I
wouldn't care if it's ten years after she left me (should that ever
happen).... I cannot think of any person alive, that knows me
as well as she.
That, Jason.... is the sanctity of marriage. And no politician, rights,
or religious group of any sort, has any right to infringe upon it.
My beef isn't with the loving parents, it's with the politicians
and the general public that put their nose into areas it does
not belong.
That's -my- opinion.
(and no..... I have absolutely no hard feelings with anyone
disagreeing with any of my opinions. That's what freedom is
all about)
(right, I@n?) |
T. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 9:00 pm: | |
Well said Jason
Tony |
airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 12:06 am: | |
Now wait a minute! Some of you are commenting about how "it is the husbands rights" bullcrap this man is shacking up with another women. He has been committing adultery for years.
Life support is artificial means to support life nothing was artificial she had a feeding tube. When they removed the feeding tube no one was allowed even to attempt to offer her food or water. This is murder by starvation.
Had she been on some form of life support, o2, respiratory something that stimulated her heart or brain then pull the plug and allow her to die. SHE WAS NOT ARTIFICIALLY SUSTAINING LIFE she was living it until she was killed.
For those older members I hope you never go to a nursing home with the intent of living. If you support this, then should you lose control of your hands and need help being fed I hope your living will does not starve you to death. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 6:20 am: | |
This is but the Tip of the Iceburg for the Left's DEATH LOBBY.
No one knew that over 35,000,000 abortions would be done in the name of new "rights" discovered 200 years after the Constitution was written in Roe vs Wade.
Now with the Ponzi Scheme of "Socal Security" facing complete slow colapse ,and medicare well over all spending projections, the DEATH LOBBY is holding up any repair of these terrible schemes.
Perhaps their "Final Solution" will be similar to Holland today, or Germany before WW II.
There ANY 'Doctor",
with out consultation with the patient , family or other "doctors" , and decide that the "quality of life" doesn't meet with the MD's personal standards , and OFF the patient if over 50 years old.
"Drove a VW , and never could afford a M-Benz , KILL HIM?"
Never broke 100 on the Golf course , meaningless life... KILL HIM!!
No one can say what the doctors OPINION of what the patients life will be , but its the MD's private turf to pass out Heaven.
The Dutch over 50 are fleeing their country (the Muslem Hord Invasion is also being fled by the under 50 set).
DEATH of the patient ,Sure is a GRAND solution for too much medicade spending , and the coming collapse of SS.
AM keeping my passport up , and fuel in the boat , should the DEATH LOBBY ever get in power again.
I'm sure Queen Hellery would have no value for my life , as I'm retired.
Just as the DEATH LOBBYS favorite , Margret Sanger , had a grand Sterilization program for minorities and anyone with an IQ inder 100, "to improve the Race".
Kill 35,000,000 as they apply for SS , and the overpromised & overspending hassles are solved.
Social Justice = some judge or State Burocrat can decide to kill you , as a cost saving!
Not for me, thanks!
FAST FRED |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 8:45 am: | |
Airless-
I really hate to add any further comments to this already too
long of an off-topic... However...
About two posts down from your original post, I tried to
provide some information for you regarding Terry's inability
to ingest food or water. I think if it should be fully understood,
that attempts to feed or give liquid to a human in as incapacitated
state as she was, would have resulted in making her condition
worse, or resulting in death.. She did not have the ability to
swallow. If she did, they would not have needed the tube
surgically implanted through her belly and into her stomach.
The tube was a temporary device to allow the body to remain
functioning for a full appraisal of her condition. After years,
and only when it was deemed by every medical professional that
examined her that her condition would never improve and worsen
over time, the need for a tube to keep the body alive furter, was
questioned.
This debacle wasn't any attack against retired, sick, weak, or disabled
individuals. Terry's body was being forced to remain alive by mechanical
means. Terry would have been dead 15 years ago, if the tube
was never placed. Her body would have starved itself to death
as perhaps was life's plan, if intrusive means weren't applied to
force it to remain breathing and pumping blood.
Has it been considered... that a doctor or family may now be wary
and second guess the application of any type of life support allowing
time for more diagnosis, if it will present such a major problem, or be
illegal to remove that support later under any circumstance?
The system's worked fine right along and there's no need to change
a thing. If the system was faulty, or too lax in the allowance of death,
15 years would not have passed so slowly for that poor soul.
This is my final post to this thread. It's way too long and if a mind
hasn't been changed, it never will be......
And besides, I -have got- to get this MC9 finished before hurricane
season hits.... See yas' later! |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 9:51 am: | |
My final thoughts on this: Also sign a Health Care Surrogate form. In this form you decide who shall make medical decisions on your behalf if you are incapacitated. This form can be updated in the event of a divorce, spouse's death, etc. as long as you are not incapacitated.
If you want everything possible done to keep you alive that is your right, put it in writing. If you want no artificial or mechanical means used to prolong your life, that is also your right, put it in writing.
In either case no one should be able to interfere with decisions made on your behalf by your family/health care surrogate. Jack |
Justin Dortignac (3of14)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 4:52 pm: | |
Hey, I just saw this and can't help but put my comments in. My family did over 200 combined hrs. of research on this case and found some facts that have been left out by the Main Stream Media (MSM).
These are proven facts:
Myth #1. Terri had a heart attack:
This one was grossly misrepresented by the MSM. Terri's collapse was NOT a result of cardiac arrest-The official hospital report stated that she had no raised enzyme levels...you cannot have cardiac arrest without raised enzymes.
Myth #2. Terri's situation merely a result of a potassium imbalance:
Terri's brain damage was caused by a lack of oxygen to her brain for a extended period of time...how? was she choking on something? Was something/one choking her...we don't know, it's still a mystery. I am aware that this may sound like a conspiracy to you, but evidence points to the fact that Michael was responsible for Terri's position in the first place.
Myth #3. Michael was concerned:
Michael put on a "very concerned husband" front. The first three to four years after the "accident", he vowed to do everything he could to rehabilitate her meanwhile he was suing her doctor for not preventing foreseeing and preventing the problem (The official report states that Terri collapsed from a potassium imbalance). Very shortly after Michael won the suit (I think it was 1.2 Million) he ordered all rehabilitation to stop. Why?
BTW, a potassium imbalance can cause a sudden collapse, but I have never heard of it starving the brain of oxygen with out causing cardiac arrest.
Myth #4:
Florida statutes state that it is a felony to withhold food and water from a disabled adult 825.102(3)(a)(1). We live in a representative republic where NO MAN is above the law, not he president, not the governor and defiantly not a judge! Judge Greer's ruling was that the feeding tube be removed (not technically illegal so far)AND that she not be allowed any nourishment (completely illegal). I am aware that there are professionals that stated that she could not handle food orally, but there are also those that said she could...my point is this: what harm could there be in attempting oral feeding? If she choked to death, she would have died a much easier death then dehydration... if she DID manage to eat, she would be making her decision on whether she wanted to starve to death or not. To say that the government should not get involved was incorrect, the government didn't get involved enough, in fact, they downright failed. When a judge makes an illegal ruling, it is the responsibility of those in the legislative branch to take corrective action. If the legislative fails, it becomes the responsibility of the executive.
Myth #5
If a person says they want to die, it's OK to kill them. You may remember that Dr.Kavorkian <sp?> is in prison for murder, did his "patients" have living wills? You bet, not only that, they made videos, signed documents...everything you could think of. Here's the problem. If you commit suicide, the authorities can take no recourse to punish you for that act...therefore you must have a "right to die". But as soon as someone else takes a hand in your death...they are guilty of murder or conspiracy to commit murder. Murder is illegal.
There are so many unanswered questions in this case that I could type all day. Please research, ask, keep your eyes open, and most of all...don't trust what ANYBODY says not the MSM, not me...look it up for yourself. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 6:14 pm: | |
Justin-
I would strongly suggest that some research is done through
the professional and legal systems, rather than "mainstream media"
If you or others lack that expertise, you should at least take the
time to follow more reliable paths, than to simply repeat the
rhetoric from news media sources. They are seeking to raise
interest, subscribers and sales, not provide proven information
to a court.
In the matter of Schiavo, no documentation had ever been
provided to any court, that contradicted with validity, the
reports presented under oath previously to the courts. The
repetitious heresy only perpetuates the emotional outbursts
of those that seek to gain with their own agenda.
-Low Potassium is determined with a blood test for Potassium.
-Enzyme levels are not a result of cardiac arrest, but may cause
cardiac arrest.
-Oxygen is carried to the brain in the blood. With cardiac arrest,
the blood is not flowing to the critical areas of the brain, and tissues
die quickly without the oxygen it contains.
-There is no "law" in Florida that automatically negates the
assignment of spouse as legal guardian.
-There is no "law" in Florida that -forces- any patient to remain
on a "life support system" indefinitely.
Potassium (K)
Potassium is a major component in cardiac function. Even small
changes in Potassium can cause abnormal cardiac arrhythmia,
affecting cardiac function.
Too much potassium in the blood is usually caused by poor kidney
function and can cause abnormal and sometimes fatal abnormalities in
the heart rhythm. Low potassium levels are usually the result of
potassium loss from excessive urination or from vomiting. A
potassium level that is too low can cause abnormal heart rhythms.
For your convenience:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=potassium+cardiac+function
http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&newwindow=1&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=potassium+cardia c+function+bulimia
http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=raised+enzym e+indicates+cardiac+failure&btnG=Search
Your comment: "If she choked to death, she would have died a much
easier death then dehydration" is a bit raw.
The patient must be saved if death from any cause, other than the
legally allowed removal of the support system, is imminent. If
the patient suffers or dies from causes other than that, there would
be liability issues that would take us into the next 10 generations.
And Justin.... Your comment:
"as someone else takes a hand in your death...they are guilty of
murder or conspiracy to commit murder"
failed to acknowledge the fact that "someone" took great liberty
to place the patient on a system that -forced- her body to remain
"alive" even though her cerebral cortex (that would allowed to her
to keep herself alive), was dead. This was not a "murder". It was the
allowance of a body to take the natural course intended, without
intervention.
And in this land, there is no law against that.
Now..... I hope I@n sees fit to close this thread. |
Jtng
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 8:00 pm: | |
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/1203galrpt.pdf |
airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 12:08 pm: | |
JTNG do you read the rhertoric you type? If her cerebral cortex was dead then she would have not lived so many days after her feeding stopped. She did not just roll over and die she starved to death and took a long time in which to starve. No hydration no food yet she remained alive a long period of time.
If this was the "natural course intended" then should you not stop eating and drinking? |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 1:23 am: | |
Airless: It's not rhetoric. Her cerebral cortex was non-functioning, essentially dead. Without the intervention of modern medical techniques, she would have died 15 yrs. ago of the same causes. What I garnered from all the coverge that I watched is that many courts over many yrs. relied upon the medical expertise of 7 examiners (5 were court appointed independant Neurologist). 4 agreed emphatically on her diagnosis and prognosis, 2 disagreed on prognosis only, and 1 more or less would not commit. In fact, JTNG has been faithfully factual thruout this thread.
I can understand that there are differences of opinion on the right to die/right to live argument but I do not relate to those that apply emotions and religion in place of reality and reasonableness. Nearly 6 yrs. of what has been described as extensive and regular rehabilitation yielded absolutely zero results.
As long as were on the subject of rhetoric, somewhere above it was stated that her husband got 1.3 million and then abandoned her. Absolutely not true. 700,000 was awarded to a medical trust for her care and her husband was awarded 300,000 for loss of consortium. The court battles began when the parents demanded a share (reportedly 1/2) of the award to the husband and he rightfully and legally refused them. Court records verify that the parents stated that they would not have honored her wishes had she put them in writing.
If I interpret it correctly, your last sentence belies a very mean spirit, which is not out of the ordinary for the Christian Right. Are you just as indignant with the deaths of over 1500 soldiers in Iraq and 75-100,000 innocent civilians, by all reliable estimates. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:08 am: | |
"75-100,000 innocent civilians, by all reliable estimates"
AL Jizera is NOT a reliable source for news.
Like the NY Times , Washington Post , LA Times ,ABC, NBC, CBS,and PBS,
they have a stake in the outcome that slants their news as much as the US listed "sources".
FAST FRED |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:30 am: | |
AL Jizera estimates run to the neighborhood of 160k. From your list I presume you consider Fox to be the reliable source. Actually, the 75-100k figure I used came directly from a joint UNICEF & US State Dept. report of 3 wks. ago. The State Dept. was more inclined to the 75k figure while UNICEF ran closer to 100k, but they utilized military casualty estimates in their computation and the State Dept did not. Naturally, no one did an actual body count. The report was barely reported in all major media environments and I seriously doubt at all on Fox, but I wouldn't know since I don't watch Fox. I heard of the report on C-Span in some detail and briefly on CNN. What is the stake that news organizations have in World events, other than a source of work. The irony is that they considered Terry Schiavo and Michael Jackson more important and worthy of coverage than 100k or so innocent and dead Arabs.
I do note that you didn't quibble with the 1500 figure, but apparently that does not register with you either. Somewhat selective indignity, sort of like our Prez's, who actively suppresses reporting on the subject, to the level of Executive Orders. |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:18 pm: | |
Back on the original OT discussion, I have to say I continue to be amazed that some folks think this is unusual. There are literally THOUSANDS of folks that die each day on the basis of previous decisions to NOT have artificial life support. There are many many more (my wife, the hospice nurse tells me) that in our fair community, there are more than a dozen a week that die after an authorized family member makes the decision that enough is enough.
Fred - if you want to be on life support for a dozen years then THAT'S YOUR DECISION. Make out a living will to that affect and leave it with someone that respects your right to make decisions. This isn't a "right" vs "left" thing - it is a fundamental right to decide, that some people want to pry away from us.
Terri, sad as it is, should have died many years ago (speaking biologically) and the simple fact is that she would have, were it not for people interfering in the lawful decision of her husband. If you don't like that fact, then change the law. In this case, the judges did NOT legislate from the bench and some people have a problem with that. If you don't like the law - change the law.
My $0.02 worth
Doug
St Louis MC9 |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:45 pm: | |
...and just to put death into persepctive, something like 160,000 people have to (and do) die worldwide EVERY day,
in order to maintain the world population. Just a few more get born every day.
All these wars and "great disasters"...just tiny bumps in the graph... good for the media though... |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 5:12 pm: | |
..... just to go a little further OT ....... on your next birthday when your feeling awful special - remember that along with you, on average, more than 17 million other people are celebrating their birthday too ........ |
airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 9:48 am: | |
"If I interpret it correctly, your last sentence belies a very mean spirit, which is not out of the ordinary for the Christian Right."
No where did I bring religion into this conversation.
As far as a war that should not be, that is a different story. I felt that the job was to take out the leader, they did that end of story get out now. Instead we have higher fuel prices to pay off the Muslim world for allowing us to go in and take over. We are spending 200 billion dollars to rebuild a country when we are sitting on a decaying one. Makes good sense. |
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