| Author | Message | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A |
I’ve got maybe 150 miles of driving on the ’06 in the past week, on various types of roads (interstate, two-lanes, and in-town). I’m attempting to dutifully follow RJs wonderful article on shifting here on BNO. BUT, no matter how much I try, I cannot double-declutch an upshift. If I put it in neutral and let the clutch out, it just won’t go back into gear when I put the clutch back in unless I nearly stop the bus and get it back into first. Now, if I shift it like a car (single clutch) and follow RJ’s four-or-five second rule of first to second (with the clutch held in), losing a second for each successive gear change, I can usually upshift without grinding. The delay is more like six seconds for first, though. The clutch action seems fine, with a pretty crisp takeoff, though I haven’t adjusted the mousetrap (since the ’06 manual only delves into air-assist clutches). I cannot downshift below maybe 20mph, no matter what I do with double-clutching and “wandering” the throttle to find the mesh point. Once she’s in neutral, she don’t like to find any gear but first, and occasionally second if I try hard enough to find it. Since this does not sound like normal clutch/tranny behavior , I’m digging through the BNO archives searching for a possible cure, and come up with maybe the throttle return spring, clutch, and/or control rod adjustments. Based on the above symptoms, do any of these (or something completely different) jump out at anyone? Thanks! BB | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
1. Practice. 2. Adjust clutch properly per DA BOOK - be sure to start up front and work your way back. 3. Practice some more. 4. Lube all shift, clutch & throttle linkages. 5. Get out and drive it. 6. Adjust the mousetrap properly per DA SUPPLEMENT BOOK. (If you don't have the supplement, email me.) (NOTE TO TWO DOGS: I'm talking about the GMC clutch-assist mousetrap here, not the emergency shut-down, OK?) 7. Did I mention getting out and practicing? 8. Put some more fuel in the tank and practice some more. 9. Buy me a RT plane ticket and I'll teach you how. . .  HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Jim Bob Rating: N/A |
Brian, Though I can shift like RJ describes, I found that my 4104 upshifts better if I run her up till it "hits the governor" (engine RPMs top out and it stops pulling), then put in the clutch and put it in neutral. Then I put it (gently) into the next gear without the clutch as the engine slows down. This should NOT result in loud grinding! If it won't go you can't force it so don't try. Just hold the stick very lightly to the gear so you can feel the speeds matching up. If you miss it, don't panic, don't push in the clutch, just give a LITTLE throttle to bring the engine to the right speed. If you push in the clutch, you lose the ability to make the gears speed up or slow down & you lose the feedback of what's going on. The condition of the engine governor & throttle cable, etc has everything to do with shifting properly too. When I first got the bus, the throttle cable was so sticky it would only go about 3/4 inch & would frequently stick wide open. The previous owner had tried to compensate for the condition by doubling the return spring at the governor. After I removed the cable & lubed it, and put the return spring back the way it was built, it shifts WAY better. If the throttle returns too quickly or too slowly, the shift timing RJ talks about happens too slowly or quickly. Because nobody actually taught me by riding with me, it took me about 5000 miles to be a decent up shifter & more than that to be good at down shifting. When you get good at this, you can up or downshift when you are NOT at the shift points. You'll know you're pretty good when you can silently shift down from 4th to 2nd going around a freeway off ramp while stepping on the brake without "jerking" the coach & spilling the lady's red wine! (17,000 miles now) Use RJ's upshift points of 20, 30 & 50 (+/-) and start your downshift 5 MPH higher. I don't downshift on flat ground, there's not enough resistance in the engine to meaningfully slow the bus down. I downshift when she loses speed climbing a hill or when I need to say, slow down & go around a corner. If I'm coming to a stop light/sign, I just put her in neutral & coast to the stop. I put her in first at about 1-2 miles per hour (just drops in) & hold the clutch at the stop. I stop about a car's length behind the car ahead & I start rolling when the light changes because the bus takes longer to get rolling than the jackrabbit cars. If you time this well, you are almost to the car when he wakes up & takes off! Jim-Bob | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
You need to use the right foot. the clutch has nothing to do do with it if your rpms dont match up to the gear your going in. dont even ues the clutch just get the motor to match the gear speed using your right foot and it will slip right in. Brian 4905 Vancouver WA for now. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
Brian, I use the clutch all the time. I have two methods of up shifting that work about equally. mostly I run up to the governor, note the speed , in each gear then depress the clutch simultaenously releasing the throttle then slowly and deliberatly move the shifter to the next gear, then apply light pressure and 'feel' the gear , if the timing is right it slips right in. With this 'single' clutching timing is everything 1-2 & 2-3 are about a count of two and 3-4 about a count of four (warm tranny). If it doesn't slip in or feel right I release the pressure on the shifter, release the clutch, jab the throttle, depress the clutch and try again. Alternatively, and this makes a faster shift, I'll double clutch. I find double clutching helpful until the tranny is warm, otherwise the shifts are rather slow,. I've never, since my first test drive, had any difficulty downshifting at about the upshift points. Just get it in neutral, let out the clutch floor the acelerator push the clutch down as I move the shifter to the desired gear. If I've slowed below the shift point I just move the shifter slower toward the lower gear. Since I have the infamous wet clutch I slip it into first as I coast to a stop at about 1 or 2 mph and hold the clutch in while stopped. I also have to shut down the engine, put it in first and restart if the tranny is cold. With a warm tranny I can get it into 4th with a small bit of grinding then shift to 1st. RJ is right Practice, Practice and more Practice. About 75% of my shifts are totally silent and about 1% require a 'redo' with the rest having a little grind as I feel for the gear. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the tips, guys. Based on the issues I'm having, and your descriptions of the shifting techniques, I'm suspecting my throttle linkage is not giving me the proper response/ feedback. Coupled with my inexperience, this might prove to be a lethal combo to smooth shifting. Yes, and I will indeed get the bus out and practice. There's a mall in my town that I can go round and round enough that security will surely come a kocking on my faded blue door. Jerry, I'm curious how you can get your single clutch shifts down to two secs. I thought the double-clutch actually sped up the input shaft slowing down... and even then it was a four count or so. Hmmm... this stuff's like vodoo. And sort of a dying art, looks like. And it sure sounds like I'm better off with a dry clutch. I have issues enough in shifting, without worrying about getting the shifter back in first before I stop or having to frequently shut the beast down to get it back in gear. Are there upsides to wet clutches vs. the older dry type?? Thanks again, folks, BB | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
As a kid I was a bus junkie and whenever I was on a bus coming out of the Port Authority building through the Lincoln Tunnel to NJ I tried to sit in the front seat on the curb side. I must have been on hundreds of buses and watched numerous drivers. Coming out of the tunnel on the NJ side the bus had to climb a hill and since only the local buses had an automatic I got to observe the drivers and their shifting methods and skills. Every driver, regardless of skills ran the bus up to the governor in each gear. They hit third early going up the hill, but every driver kept it against the governor probably because the bus couldn't pull the hill in forth. When each bus hit the crest of the hill each driver shifted. Some drivers never made a sound when shifting. These same drivers were virtually flawless in making the gear change without a sound. Other drivers would move the shift lever and I could hear the gears grinding but they wouldn't force it into gear. They just kept a small pressure on the stick and after a second or two the shift was made. I don't ever recall seeing any of the drivers double clutch and some didn't use the clutch. Today, 45 or 50 years later I am still in awe of the drivers who got so in tune with their buses they could move it into the next gear without a sound. Not once, but on every shift. This is back when the buses were GM or White. | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
Jim-Bob......good post. I agree with RJ as he "taught" me several years ago...very patiently, I must say, thru email and his great article on this board. (Thanx Ian!!) However your embelishments were right on the money as far as I am concerned....(Not an 06.... but a Crown Supercoach). RJ's experience driving Crowns was invaluable, but I must say, at the bottom line the best possible advice is, as he has said so many times...P R A C T I C E, which should make perfect; probably better said on this particular subject...... "purrfect"... IYKWIM. Thanx RJ and all others for the "refresher". FWIW RCB | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach)
Rating: N/A |
Hi JohnW. & Folks: John, you just helped bring back some wonderful old memories from the late 50's into the 60's for this Old Dude, when I was a kid!!!!! Having been born and raised in Teaneck, N.J., I was just across the river from the Port Authority Terminal, and when old enough, with parental permission, I was there every week end. For the edification of the Group, the Port Authority Bus Terminal in Manhatten, is or perhaps was, the largest bus terminal in the world!!!! The scheduled daily arrivals and departures are measured in the multible thousands per day!!! And John you are right, back then everything was stick shift equipped. There were pancake (under the floor) Whites, ACF Brills, along with the Public Service (Now NJT) fleet of GM'S. That trip out of the Lincoln Tunnel is not a Hill, it is a Mountain, in my opionion, and was the acid test of a good shifting driver!!! Having rode and listened as you did, you are absolutely correct, most of the drivers had the ear for their bus and could upshift or downshift as required, and others handled the gear shift like they were mad at the world, while grinding their employers transmissions into submission. In 1962 I went to work for a bus company in Philadelphia. Worked in the office in Charter Sales. I was 19 years old. One of the drivers and I set up tours, to earn extra money, with the permission of the owner. Eddie would drive and I was the tour escort. Eddie knew what a "Bus-Nut" I was, and he knew how much I wanted to drive, but back then in Penna., one had to be 21 years old in order to drive a bus (did not require a special license). So when I was 20, Eddie and I had a tour in New York City and he said: I know you want to, so let me teach you to drive. (I thought I died and went to heaven!!) Now here we were on the streets of Manhatten, traffic coming from all directions, and I said to him: Eddie you want me to learn bus driving here??? He said, Luke if you can drive a bus here, you can drive one anywhere!!! This was a "wet clutch" (just like the 4905's) GM Fishbowl Suburban, and he told me to get behind the wheel. He taught me to shift by listening to the engine!!! And he was correct, if one can learn the sound of their engine, they can shift every time. He taught me how to recover if I missed a shift, by hiting the accelerator and while listening to the engine RPM's come back down, have light pressure on the gear shift to make the gear change and he also taught me how to shift without the clutch, in the event I ever had a bus with a weak clutch that had to get home. John W., thanks again for reviving some OLD wonderful memories. And folks, if just purchasing your stick shift coach, take time to learn your coach and listen, before you build your interior, at which time you will probably not be able to hear your engine!!! It is a matter of timing. At times, here at our shop, I have on the cleanest clothes, when it is time to Road Test a coach. If it is a stick shift, then I still "LISTEN", although it is not as easy as a seated coach, it still works. I remember back a couple of years ago when Don Peter and his wife were here with his 4104 and it was time for a road test. I jumped in, we headed down the road and I didn't miss a shift. Don said to me, I have owned this coach for years and I can't do that. I told him that I shift by EAR, and tried to pass along to him what I had learned many years before!!! Like many other things in life, if you want to do it, you will!!! Practice makes perfect!!!! Just realized that this got Long, for which I apologize, but it isn't too often at this age, that I get excited, and tonight I am, with fond memories!! Now if I were Two Dogs, I guess I might be excited every Day and Night!!!! Sorry Two Dogs, just couldn't resist!!!! We Love YOU!! Thanks for Listening!! Happy & SAFE!! Bussin' to ALL. LUKE at US COACH | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
It realy is kinda "ART".....when done properly ,it's a beautiful thing to watch...kinda like watching a GOOD bulldozer operator....or a GOOD bigtruck tire man....the guys that have the "TIMEING" down ...at their job....it's is prettier to watch than balote...well...that ain't spelled correctly...you kno..them women that dance on their toes.. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Dunno... I learned it thus: Start by learning to run it up to it's governor in each gear. (4th will net you a speeding ticket) 1 first gear 2 run up to governor (15 mph) 3 count "1" as you move clutch in and shift into neutral and release clutch 5 count "2" as you depress clutch and shift into second and release clutch. The "one - two" sequence is repeated, and you go to the limit of the governor at each shift. Once you get the habit of feeling the engine vibrations through the shift lever, you'll learn to sense the rpm for the proper gear. It's harder with a full bus full of screaming bingo players.... but it'll be the only way you'll be able to shift. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
Brian, I believe I'm fortunate in that my bus appears to have a working countershaft brake. When my tranny is warmed up thouroughly I can even shift into first at a stop without grinding if I wait about five seconds after depressing the clutch. My point is with patience single clutching also works, but it's certainly slower than double clutching. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Rating: N/A |
"..them women that dance on their toes.." Yeah. all of them when they're around YOU. Great thread, gents. I'm a gettin' better - got upshifting licked but still only two for five downshifting. | ||
| Craig (Ceieio)
Rating: N/A |
I learned to shift driving farm trucks while growing up. (I was rowing a Kenworth with a 5 and 4 when I was 14). I spent the most time at the wheel of my GMC Astro 95 with a 8v92 and 10 speed road ranger. When I started bus shopping I was ambivilent about manual vs auto, and drove several buses before we bought ours (an auto). The easiest one to shift that I drove was an Eagle with an air assist. At any rate, with a few summers of driving 82,000 lb trucks, I thought the bus would be easy. I picked up upshifts right away. The timing is slower as the splits are bigger than the 10 to 20 speeds I had driven, but a relaxed hand got it in with no grinds. Upshifts? That was another matter. I am not sure what the mental block was, but those usually hit one in three on my first try (flat ground was the hardest). I suspect that I was rushing the bus (even though I tried not to) as I was conditioned to a faster pace from narrower splits. More time in the same rig is what is needed to get the shifts down. You'll get there. My thoughts, summed up, are that while semi-trucks are not that easy to learn, buses seem more difficult to me, and, as stated above, practice make perfect! Craig - MC7 | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Hitting the Gov slows down the fuel delivery, as does removing foot from throttle. The proper shift RPM needs to have the engine RPM decay very quickly . Be sure the throttle linkage is not binding , and the RPM is set properly (not high). IF you go to the Daris web site and build a graph for road speed/ engine speed in EVERY GEAR , you will see the RPM must decay very low with stock gov settings. A "pip" (paint dot) on the top of the speedo arc at each gov induced shift point will help. AS will a second pip at 1000 rpm below the speed arc , to help keep from lugging , in any geat. FAST FRED | ||
| Phil Dumpster Rating: N/A |
Busses are a bit more difficult to learn precisely because there is a lot more space between the gears. Then again, with fewer gears comes fewer choices, and that in a sense can make them easier for someone who has never driven a crashbox. The first time I drive a particular bus or truck with a non-synchro transmission, I'll double clutch the shifts until I get to "know" the machine a bit and get a feel for what each gear can do, but after a while I'll only use full depressions of the clutch pedal for starting and stopping (and sometimes not even for stopping, as I'll ease the gearshift into neutral as the driveline unloads). When shifting through the lower gears, I step the clutch in only halfway to "cushion" the shifts so I'm not hitting the gears with full engine torque right as they mesh. Here's a trick which might help you - with the engine running and the transmission in neutral, to get into first gear, instead of trying to put it straight into first, put it into fourth instead, then first, keeping the clutch depressed while shifting. It will grind much much less than if you tried to get into first directly. If you have the luxury of time and can wait five seconds from when you step on the clutch to when you put it into fourth, it will barely grind at all. Some will no doubt say you shouldn't sit in traffic with the clutch out in neutral, but I do it all the time. The trick is to pay attention to traffic around you and anticipate when you have to move. Sitting at a stoplight, I look at the cross traffic signals, and when they turn yellow it's a cue that I'm going to have to start moving in five seconds or so. That's when the clutch goes in, the light turns green, the gearshift goes into fourth, then first, then the clutch comes out and I'm on my way. To learn the downshifts, find out what your maximum speed in each gear is, then put bits of masking tape on your speedo marked with numbers for each gear. Pulling a hill, as the coach slows down to each mark, you now know when to shift into the lower gear, and as a bonus to get into that gear all you have to do is floorboard the throttle and the rpms will be close enough to make the shift. As an example, say your maximum speed in third is 45 mph, and you have put a piece of tape on your speedo with the number "3" pointing at 45 mph. You're cruising along at 60 in fourth when you meet the upgrade of a mountain pass. The coach begins to slow down, you hear the exhaust note change and the engine begins to labor. As the needle drops below 50, you get ready to make your move. At 47 mph, you apply light pressure against the gearshift to try to move it to neutral, you let off the throttle and then the gearshift moves freely to neutral. Once it's there, you floor the throttle until the engine is at maximum speed. When the needle of the speedo hits your tape mark, step on the clutch and move the gearshift into third. It should slide in without a hint of resistance. When you can do that reliably without grinding, try stepping on the clutch only halfway. Try it without stepping on the clutch at all. Good drivers can do it without the clutch all the time every time. Since I'll never be that good, I half step the clutch. After a time, when you get used to doing it at governor, you'll come to a point where you will be able to do it at less than the governor limit. It's not so much by the sound of the engine, or the vibration of the coach, and I don't want say it's ESP, but it's sort of a sense of feel. Darn, now I'm beginning to wish my bus didn't have an automatic. I miss the old days of charter work with 07s and 09s. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
one thing...when you let off the accelerator...let completly off ...unknowingly...you can stll have it reving a little...'pop your foot COMPLETLY off when it's time'...kinda like jerking your foot off the footfeed... | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I think an investment in a tachometer is the best investment you can make while learning to shift a manual tranny. Richard | ||
| mclough Rating: N/A |
FOR WHAT ITS WORTH I used to drive a 53 foot trailer and never used a clutch. now on my 04 i had a hard time meshing the gears. UNTIL i put a tach in. now their is no problem with the gears or when they mesh. all in the RPM'S | ||
| R.C. Bishop
Rating: N/A |
What GREAT information....and FREE!!!...thanx, guys. thanx Ian and thanx for asking the question Brian. This is EXACTly what this board is about.... very, VERY helpful....if nothing else, a refresher to those who might have forgotten the "finite"......I have lotsa new "stuff to try on my RR 10 speed.... RCB | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
Could there be some sort of mechanical problem either with the shift linkage or clutch adjustment resulting in a situation where it is IMPOSSIBLE to shift your hot rod 4106? ANYONE can learn to do ANYTHING, including double clutching. May not be a people problem at all, but something mechanical. Even I can shift a RTO-910 Roadranger like a pro. (which I am NOT!!) Crown. I bet if you could arrange to drive someone else's 4106 you would do just fine and have NO PROBLEM shifting, either up or down. Some trucks/buses/fire engines just have "square gears" for whatever reason. Carry on. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
For folks with a bit of dificulty shifting , a bit of insurance can be had with a couple of quarts of synthetic in the tranny. No it won't shift "better" , but the synthetic has fantastic sheer lubrication , and when those teeth are grinding , the synthetic will cut down on the metal in the filter. The tranny full of synthetic won't help much more , and may require regasketing to hold that $10. a quart oil. FAST FRED |