| Author | Message | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
I'm about to take the big step here. It is going to be a 3751, 4104 or 4106. I'm very partial to the first two mostly because of the steel framework in the 4106. Is this joining of two different metals, alminum and steel, really a significant issue? Except for engines and trans there seems to be little other difference between the 04 and 06. What do the experts think? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Well, let's see. . . 3751 Built between 1947 - 1948. Great old classic workhorse, affectionately known as the Silversides. Steel spring suspension. Lots of steel used in the undercarriage. Small windows. Very small baggage bins. Designed for operation on two-lane roads where 60 mph was considered fast. Non-power steering, unless retrofitted. Worked very hard by industry after WWII. Parts become an interesting challenge. 4104 Built between 1953 - 1960. One of the industry's best workhorses, even tho they operated in the Scenicruiser's shadow. Often called "Highway Traveler", 4104s are the first highway coach model with air suspension. Simple (comparatively) to work on. 6-71, while not the most powerful motor out there, is virtually indestructable with decent care and feeding. Larger windows and baggage bins than the Silversides. OEM powertrain layout precludes automatic w/o major work, same for HP bumps, except 6-71Ts. Must add additional cooling capacity if upgrading motor. Extra 25 gallon fuel tank for pony engine (which powered HVAC unit), makes a good genset supply. Like earlier MCIs, use air beams which are prone to leaks from rusted out beams - can be plated, many have. With most commonly found stock rear axle (4.125:1), top speed limited to about 65 mph - and definitely 2nd gear climbing 6% grades. If rare Hydrashift model is found, clutch parts are now made from unobtainium. Mostly aluminum construction, with steel reinforcements in the axle areas, the air beams (altho some early models had aluminum ones) as well as steel front and rear caps. Flatland fuel mileage 9-11, depending on weight of right boot and wind direction. 5065 built, only MC-9 and newer DL4500s exceed that. Designed before the Interstate highway system, think of the classic fable "The Tortoise & The Hare" - the '04 is the tortoise. 4106 Built between 1961 - 1965. Modified and updated 4104, but also victim of Scenic's shadow and industry's move to 40' coaches. Last of the single-deck GM highway coaches, also known as a dependable workhorse. Crisper styling, 4" taller side windows plus much larger rear window. Front clearance and marker lights shared with later models. Rear markers unique to this model. Fluting on sides spaced differently than previous and subsequent models. Pony engine & tank gone, new baggage bin on LH side between LF wheel and A/C condensor. Slightly more baggage bin space than predecessor. New door between LR wheel and radiator give access to engine PTO. No air beams, uses rolling lobe air bellows. OEM dashboard & controls basically shared with same-vintage transits - amidst howls of protest from operators. Pantograph wipers cover more glass. First coach to use 8V71 Detroit. Angle-drive bevel gears relocated to handle larger torque output of new V-8 diesel. Adaption of auto trans less complex than '04, yet still major surgery. Most running gear shared with later production models - better parts supply. BIG radiator - very tough to overheat when system is maintained and driven properly. OEM powertrain will run 75 mph w/o sweating, over 80 with tall tires. Will pull many hills in 3rd gear where '04 will be down into 2nd. Fuel mileage 8 - 10 if driven somewhat conservatively. Known by many as the original, first-generation, "Sports Car of Buses", with the RTS frequently being considered the second-generation. (See Geoff, I thought of you  ) Designed after the Interstate highway system was started, the '06 is better suited to the super-slab than it's older sibilngs, yet quite happy on the two-lanes and byways as well. A total of 3225 were built. There's a brief recap of the three models, hope it helps before you take the plunge. . . RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| John Rigbyj
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04 or 06 both good coaches. 04 easier to work on in the engine compartment.The early 06 had bad bulk head cracking problems, but so did the early MC9,s. Retro fitting the 04 with a 671TA and bigger radiator gives you 300hp+ and 11 mpg. Not having the extra wieght of that 8v71 and the aluminum must help the 04. Buy converted and change out you will be money ahead. John | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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I'd vote for 4104 or 4106...CONDITION means everything...Don knows where there is a good 4104 in Kansas..worth the $$..already converted | ||
| CoryDaneRTS Rating: N/A |
Nice info there RJ Did they go to POTTSYLVANIA to find the "UNOBTAINSIUM"? I have the Second Gen "SPORTS CAR" of the bus generation. LOLOL cd | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Thanks to All, This is surely all the info I could ever expect. Cheers, gusc | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"The early 06 had bad bulk head cracking problems" Which were only on coaches built in the first year of 06 construction. After which the factory redesigned the bulkhead and offrered refit kits to the commercial operators. The bulkhead will need a huge rebuild / reinforcement if the 731 is "needed " so the "wife" can drive.VS 2 is easy swop. FAST FRED | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
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Not to be sexist or anything, but most wives won't drive anyway... unless it was 20 feet shorter, two feet narrower, had crusie control, weighed ten tons less, and they could turn around and look out a back window when backing. My wife got freaked out driving our 26' P-30 chassis Winnie back in our "sticks" days, and it drove like a car... granted, a car that was deafening and bouncing like crazy, and one that gets five mpg... but easy to maneuver like a car. I'd love to be proven wrong... show of hands: How many busnuts' wives drive their rigs with any regularity? Now, I see plenty of women bus drivers hauling around 40' MCIs and Neoplans for the local RTD transit service. Always impresses me. But, I bet they ain't married to a busnut. Heck, I'm sure many of our wives wish they weren't married to a busnut, but I digress... Inquiring minds want to know! BB | ||
| Don/TX
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Never could even get my wife to consider driving mine. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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NEVER will alow ANYTHING close to above statement....won't let them handel explosives either... | ||
| Daris Rating: N/A |
My wife drove our 4106 twice. We still have the original Spicer four speed. The first time was on I-5, just north of Sacramento in high winds. She did pretty good. Got blown around a bit. And, that was before we had the radius rod bushings replaced. The second time was shortly after the California/Oregon border. I cleared the 6% drop into Oregon, but was exhausted and she kept offering to drive. She had some trouble with down shifting, but kept at it. It was on our way up to Oregon for our wedding. We parked it in her mother's yard. All her friends and family came over to get a look at it. She told all of them with pride that she had driven it. She's still not confident enough to drive on city streets or the Southern California freeways in traffic, but she is eager to get it out on the highway again. We're talking about a trip to Colorado this summer. That was a great trip. We also had a nice visit with RJ Long. Regards, Daris | ||
| Jim Bob Rating: N/A |
My wife drives our 4 speed 4104 when I let her. Actually, she has driven about 5,000 miles almost all on freeway. She can double clutch but has trouble downshifting but she's improving. She can also back up a mean boat or travel trailer. (But only if she can look out the back window!) I don't want to think about her backing into a campsite by the mirrors though I'm sure she could. Jim-Bob | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
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Yea...my wife has drives our 6 speed Prevo on the Interstate. She too can double clutch but has trouble downshifting. She just needs more miles under her belt. Ron | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
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4104 is a very good bus I own one. The 4106 is also a very nice bus. But the 3751 can't be beat in the looks department. I own two of them and one 4151. They do usally require a bit more work to bring them to road worthiness as finding one in good shape is not getting any easier. Tim | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
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Sounds like my wife can be taught not to fear the big blue bus. Of course, with my luck she'd learn to shift the Spicer better than me and I'll have no manhood left at all. That is, until it comes time to dump the black tank. That will forever remain my domain. Thanks for the poll responses... BB | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
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Getting back to the original question: Did I mention that I LOVE my new '06? It can really drive faster than I care to go... I had to take my foot out of it at 75mph. I can't help you much with the other two predecessors, as far as driving perceptions. But I believe that the '06 was actually lighter than the '04. Big anti-roll bars under it. Lower RPMs. '04's should be easier to find as busses and parts because they made more of them. The 671 can get some great mileage as long as you're OK driving slower. I read a lot about leadfoots wanting to repower and having "pumpkin" and bevel gear issues in the '04. Silversides have such a cool nostalgic look. Like a classic car. Something that old will need some babying, though. You final decision might well be what you can find to buy and what your needs are in a coach. By buying a converted bus, I was able to save some $ and lots of time over doing it myself. Yeah, it ain’t what I’d build from scratch, but I’m camping now instead of sawing and nailing and crimping. To each his own… I do think GM made the best engineered, most “purty” busses… but I’m very prejudiced. Brian Brown PD4106-1175 T8H-5305-021 (for a few more days anyway) | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Daris - Nice to see you're monitoring the boards still. . . send me a note privately regarding that roll sign curtain you gave me. Brian - With all the women school bus and transit bus operators nowdays, it's not the issue it used to be. Good training helps. Still waiting for the RT air ticket to help you (& Momma) learn to drive your "new" 4106, btw. RJ | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
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Hey, RJ, I'd love to get trained by the Master himself. You'd quickly tire of me asking for your "war stories" driving busses. A RT ticket might be the best $ I’d ever spend on busses… and boy do I spend it. BTW, as I was driving my bus to storage today and my good wife following in the car, she noted my bad form in turns. I vaguely remember a nice write-up you did on square turns and how to initiate and think through them, but for the life of me couldn't find them here on BNO. Happen to have it saved somewhere handy? Oh, and did you get my email last week about the mousetrap adjustment supplement? I'm trying to track one down. Thanks, RJ, Brian | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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guess the hardest thing on turns is right turn...1/2 block before your right turn,put your left tires on the dash line.. | ||
| Linda 4104 FL Rating: N/A |
I learned to drive our 4104 when it still had the stick and clutch. Seemed like every time it was my turn to drive, we'd hit a construction zone that was like a damn slalom course. It is, of course, much easier now that we have an automatic transmission. And I know of at least 2 other women who regularly drive their 40' buses. | ||
| H3 (Ace)
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LOL yea right Linda! I've seen you ride a bike too! Ace | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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BB - This might be what you're looking for, but prob. not. I saved it a long time ago... Button Hook Turn By Henry, eh (24.79.130.10) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 8:54 pm: Here's a little trick for making tight right-hand corners. It's called a button hook turn. This type of turn allows you to get your rear tires around obstacles when you are faced with minimal room. First, the ideal distance from your obstacle is 3 feet or better.(parallel) This is how much you can lose as you turn. Second, think right angles. If you start to angle in too soon, you will run out of room. Run the bus parallel along side the road (lane or whatever) until your front bumper is even with the corner you are trying to make. Then, while you are still moving slowly, turn your wheel to the left (yes, left!) approximately 1/2 turn, then crank it hard to the right while still moving. This little button hook creates a change in travel angle for the rear duals which will give you some extra turning room. If you don't think it makes much of a difference, try it with your cones on your parking lot. It can take some experimenting for the right amount of speed and turning. Remember, dead slow speed is essential. Speed dictates control. If the turn is still too tight, overshoot the corner, turn your wheel all the way to the left and back up a few feet. That will help a lot too. I love to see the look on the faces of construction guys as I bring my bus around turns that they are sure is impossible and then I make it with room to spare. Since Edmonton has two seasons, winter and construction, good driving skills is essential. Henry http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/908.html?998787280 | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
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Chuck, thanks, that's a good one I haven't seen. I was actually out today in my van trying this technique after you pasted it in here. Wow, it makes a huge diff. on a right angle, right-hand turn. Can't wait to try it out on the beast. Maybe RJs square turn primer was on the MAK board... and it's be gone forever if so. Thanks, Brian | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Here's the MAJOR problem with a button-hook turn when you're in traffic with multiple lanes in the same direction: Folk on the LH side or slightly to the rear of the bus (where they cannot see the RH turn signals) think you're starting to change lanes into them, and will instinctively turn left to avoid you. See the problem? It can turn into a liability issue faster than you can turn the steering wheel. BTDT, had to investigate the accident, and it was a nasty one - a head-on. Thankfully w/o fatalities, but major injuries. Bus driver cited for unsafe lane change, even tho he never left the curbside (#2) lane, nor was his bus scratched by the vehicles that actually collided. Cost the city a bunch of $$$. . . Among the professonal bus driver trainers I know (school, charter & transit, about two dozen folk total), button-hook turns haven't been taught here in CA for over 20 years. Square turns are the norm, and when done properly, will track the outside rear dual right around on the curb/pavement seam. Coach size doesn't matter, 30, 35, 40, 45, even artics. You just have to know how to do it and practice. 18-wheelers, OTOH, are a completely different beast, and button-hooks are common. One of the challenges to being a bus driver trainer was getting ex-truck jockeys to give up their beloved buttons (and other habits). FWIW, RJ | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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Actually, that's *not* the article I was looking for but it's all I could find at the time. I remembered that there were a few liabilities with this technique. Another is, if you're making a RH turn, cars from the *right* side can think you're moving over to the left and whiz by on the right, directly in yo path as you're turning right after moving over to the left. You have to be SURE no cars are trying to squeeze past. And you *don't* want to actually get over in the other lane, just kissing the line. Also tail swing in the rear is something to not forget as you're swinging around. Not as bad in busses as MoHo's, but... There's another good article in BCMag, July 2004 by Robert Peck, about how to do it right. Too bad there's no online version. Sounds like a business plan to me! ...and I'm not *even* qualified to post about this area. Heck I'm still downshifting like some of those mentioned above. Shoudda kept my fingers quiet! ;) | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Get the sign thats now on almost all OTR trailers - "This Vehicle Makes Wide Turns" (((((Diagram of turn)))))))) Post is on the back of your bus - Niles | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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or....get the bumper sticker: "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY I DRIVE, STAY OFF THE SIDEWALK" | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Hello sharp turners. All a button hook turn does is get the back wheels further out from the curb, so you can get more of the arc of the turn done before you run out of room around the corner. Typically, there is not enough space for the front of the bus to swing. If there is a bus stop just before the corner, the bus driver needs that style turn in the tool kit, since the bus has to be close to the curb to service the stop, at odds with having to be far away from the curb for the tight corner. However, none of us have that restriction. We have ample time to get the bus lined up wide to begin with. I might argue that a button hook turn is a tool for the busnut who is a poor planner who doesn't look far enough ahead to see what road position will be needed for the next move. I discourage button hook turns for two reasons: first, because they involve putting the bus on an aggresive angle much higher than 90 degrees to the corner, for the inexperienced, they aren't easily duplicated, so the learning curve is hard. In other words, you can't turn the corner twice the same, so it makes it hard to learn. Second, because of the real danger of where your attention is focused: on the corner. My experience as a driver trainer has given me gray hair. You won't believe the number of people who will swing out without checking first, because all they are worried about is making the corner. That person is us, so we'd best watch ourselves! The key word here is: WORRIED. No one performs well under stress, and many of us feel a lot of stress when faced with tight spaces. Defend yourself from yourself! Stick with what you commonly do: getting the rear wheels to turn 90 degree corners. Set up early, check beside you to the left, straddle the lane, approach the corner with the bus square to the curb line. Watch for cars, bikes, roller bladers sneaking up on the inside, and turn the corner. This would be lots easier to explain with a video. RJ, buy an airplane ticket to parts north for a photo shoot. How many pay-per-view types are there out there? 2D, maybe you could convince Lola to appear in this film to spice things up a bit? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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BW - 2D's is busy doing a remake of the movie "Some Like It Hot" possibly starring *****LOLA***** He may be ready for that plane ticket after the debut of his first production though - HEHE Niles | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
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Buswarrior, your suggestion for a video is a golden one. Starring you and RJ, it'd be downright platinum. It's something that's been turning in my mind since I started driving busses (attempting to, I should say). I'm friends with the General Manager of a big RV dealership in town and have pitched him the idea of producing a DVD to hand out with all of the quarter-million $ + DPs he sells. The chapters can cover how to drive the big things. You know, pre-trip for airbrakes, stopping distances, turning, towing, etc. A couple of ex-bus driver/ trainers might be a great match. Great road trip, too. Hmm.... Brian Brown | ||
| JP Shelton
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I'm selling my 4106-2119. Will post it on e-bay (I guess). Joe | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Joe - Why not also post it here at BNO??? Ian's got a terrific classified section. RJ |