BNO BBS - BNO's Bulletin Board System
TOPICS => THE BOARD => Topic started by: Mr. Breeze on April 11, 2012, 02:42:32 PM
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We have been looking at 4104's and wanted to know, what engines came in these buses?
Was it one engine size in particular? or a couples of different models?
If it was more than one model, what was the best engine?
Also, what are some specific items to look for when checking out a bus?
Thanks for your help!
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4104's had a inline 6-71 engines John
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4104's had a inline 6-71 engines John
How are they performance wise, going up hills and such?
The bus we looked at had the vin # PD-4104-4532
Thanks for your reply.
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They faint at the sight of a hill most are not bad on fuel 8 to 10 mpg a DDEC inline 6-71 makes a rocket out of the 4104 I am building a DDEC 6-71 for a friend to install in his 4104 this summer and we are shooting for 400 hp why he wants 400 hp is beyond me I guess it is one of those mine is bigger things lol me I would not spend the money he is going spend on a 50 year bus for a re power
good luck
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That is a very late model, mt '53 s/n is 1274.
671 as originally installed works fine, third or second gear on serious hills but it gets there.
Good fuel mileage, 8-10 on mine.
Great buses. Only reason I got my 4107 was for AT and fulll-time PS, otherwise I would have kept driving it.
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That is a very late model, mt '53 s/n is 1274.
671 as originally installed works fine, third or second gear on serious hills but it gets there.
Good fuel mileage, 8-10 on mine.
Great buses. Only reason I got my 4107 was for AT and fulll-time PS, otherwise I would have kept driving it.
Please forgive me, but I am new to buses and the lingo.
If I may ask, what does mt '53 s/n is 1274 mean?
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Mr. Breeze,
I believe he's saying - he has a 1953, S/N serial number or VIN is interchangable here 1274. He has an early model of the 4104.
The rig you are looking at is a 1960. 1960 was the last model year. They only made 5,065.
Welcome to the world of 4104's
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Mr. Breeze,
Is the bus already converted or a shell? Also what state is it in?
I am the crazy bus nut trying to track down the where abouts of all 5,065 - 4104's ever made.
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Mr Breeze -
Info on original owner of 4532 is posted in the other thread for you.
With the 4104, reflect for awhile about Aesop's Fable "The Tortoise and the Hare."
Drive one with that mindset and you'll be a happy camper. Try to drive it like a car and you'll be very frustrated.
You will not find one with an automatic in it unless it's been repowered, otherwise you get your choice of 4-spd stick, 4-spd stick or a 4-spd stick. All crash boxes w/ no synchronizers, thus double-clutching is the norm until you get several thousand miles under your belt.
All 4104s were delivered from the factory with the inline 6-71 Detroit Diesel - a virtually unbreakable engine when treated correctly (i.e.: don't lug it, don't overheat it, and use the right engine oil - NO multi-viscosity, straight 40wt only.)
If the coach still has it's rear windows, and said windows are cracked, be aware that the glass is currently being made from unobtainium, and has been for over a dozen years.
Clifford -
If your friend really wants 400hp, encourage him to buy up every 4101, 4102, 4103 and 4104 transmission he can get his hands on, because he could easily blow out the bevel gears w/ that much hp. That's why GM moved the bevel set when they introduced the V-8 models.
FWW & HTH. . .
;)
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RJ is hit the nail on the head. You can also use the PD4151 and PD3751 transmissions although the gear ratios of first, second and third are slightly different from the 7141a transmission used in the 4104. None of these transmissions will stand
400 H.P. and neither will the cooling system in the 4104. Its questionable how long the 671 would last producing 400 H.P. There were some turbo LA671T engines built from the factory used in buses that dependably produced 275H.P. and if the driver used that amount of horse power with some restraint the transmissions would probably give satisfactory performance life.
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Now guys I have installed 2 DDEC 6-71 330 hp setting in 4104's it hasn't been a problem yet set the DDEC rating right hp is not going to hurt one get the torque setting to high different story,lots of 4104 have a 6V92 upgrade at 350 hp they are doing fine the 4 I know of anyway
good luck
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Horse power multiplied by the gear ratio reduction through first, second and even third gear mean tremendous torque applied to the bevel gears as they are on the out put side of the transmission. Its not that it can,t be done and work ok but it really does depend on the driver and his or her ability to understand the weaknesses of the drive line and how their diving habits can effect them.
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Mr. Breeze,
I believe he's saying - he has a 1953, S/N serial number or VIN is interchangable here 1274. He has an early model of the 4104.
The rig you are looking at is a 1960. 1960 was the last model year. They only made 5,065.
Welcome to the world of 4104's
OK, that makes sense now. Thank you!
Mr. Breeze,
Is the bus already converted or a shell? Also what state is it in?
I am the crazy bus nut trying to track down the where abouts of all 5,065 - 4104's ever made.
This bus has been converted. It will need a good portion of the interior removed along with flooring they put in.....basically rebuild the entire inside. I have a feeling this interior was a private conversion (because of the quality of work/materials) and not done by someone with skills.
We were told it will need a new head and at this time, there is also a title issue which needs to be dealt with.....seems to have to many problems.
We have thought about getting this bus, but it is last on our list because we found another bus that is running and is somewhat converted. This one will also need the inside redone, which we have no problem doing ourselves as I have the equipment and skill to do the entire inside.
When we go back to see her, I will get the vin number for your records. I am pretty sure we will be purchasing this bus.
I really don't like buying a vehicle that doesn't run, especially one of this caliber.
Bus is located In Phoenix Arizona.
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Mr Breeze -
Info on original owner of 4532 is posted in the other thread for you.
With the 4104, reflect for awhile about Aesop's Fable "The Tortoise and the Hare."
Drive one with that mindset and you'll be a happy camper. Try to drive it like a car and you'll be very frustrated.
You will not find one with an automatic in it unless it's been repowered, otherwise you get your choice of 4-spd stick, 4-spd stick or a 4-spd stick. All crash boxes w/ no synchronizers, thus double-clutching is the norm until you get several thousand miles under your belt.
All 4104s were delivered from the factory with the inline 6-71 Detroit Diesel - a virtually unbreakable engine when treated correctly (i.e.: don't lug it, don't overheat it, and use the right engine oil - NO multi-viscosity, straight 40wt only.)
If the coach still has it's rear windows, and said windows are cracked, be aware that the glass is currently being made from unobtainium, and has been for over a dozen years.
Clifford -
If your friend really wants 400hp, encourage him to buy up every 4101, 4102, 4103 and 4104 transmission he can get his hands on, because he could easily blow out the bevel gears w/ that much hp. That's why GM moved the bevel set when they introduced the V-8 models.
FWW & HTH. . .
;)
This is so cool, thank you so much for providing this info for me. I don't think we will be purchasing this bus because it has some issues and I really don't want to deal with them, although the bus has many amenities, it is had to walk away.
I will be sure to post the VIN of the bus we think we will be purchasing.
Going slow up hills is no problem by us....all we have is time ;)
Again, thanks for your help!
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Now guys I have installed 2 DDEC 6-71 330 hp setting in 4104's it hasn't been a problem yet set the DDEC rating right hp is not going to hurt one get the torque setting to high different story,lots of 4104 have a 6V92 upgrade at 350 hp they are doing fine the 4 I know of anyway
good luck
Hey luvrbus, did you get the PM I sent to you?
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Yeah, what I was trying to say was my '53 4104 is serial number PD4104-1274 but I tried to make it too short.
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Yea I got it will call you when we get back to Scottsdale in a week or so,do you if the Eagle is for sale up by the golf course on Thunderbird it has been there for several years a white model 10
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Yea I got it will call you when we get back to Scottsdale in a week or so,do you if the Eagle is for sale up by the golf course on Thunderbird it has been there for several years a white model 10
OK, I wasn't sure if in fact it went through....getting used to the system here. I will wait to hear from you once you return. Have a safe trip!
I never knew of any Eagle for sale om Thunderbird or in the area. I drive through there all the time, maybe I missed it.
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It is between 64th and 51th on Thunderbird setting in the front yard be hind a block wall I think that is right when I get back to Equestrian Manor I'll check for sure.Are you sure you want 35 ft bus lol
good luck
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Mr Breeze -
All crash boxes w/ no synchronizers, thus double-clutching is the norm until you get several thousand miles under your belt.
I am kind of used to double clutching as I did that all the time driving my Grandads have truck. I am sure the Bus will be a bit different, but not a problem.
If the coach still has it's rear windows, and said windows are cracked, be aware that the glass is currently being made from unobtainium, and has been for over a dozen years.
There are a couple of cracked windows. One window is on the passenger side right behind the entry door (the one that looks like a wing vent glass of an old Bel-Air) and one of the windows on the drivers side, midway back (standard bus window) one pane cracked. All other windows are in tact and she has a brand new windshield.
Is this unobtainium a bad thing? Expensive?
I googled the term but need to read up a bit more about it.
I see I messed up this quote. It shows me quoting myself and I meant to quote RJ Long.
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It is between 64th and 51th on Thunderbird setting in the front yard be hind a block wall I think that is right when I get back to Equestrian Manor I'll check for sure.Are you sure you want 35 ft bus lol
good luck
Ok, I will look for it.
We don't know as of yet. A 40' would be nice, but I don't know much about tag axles and that would also be an added expense when it comes to tires. I am not ruling it out, so there is always that option of going longer.
Although I would say we are sold on the 4104 or that era(50's to 60's). I guess you could say we love the nostalgia of the bus and the nice lines.
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Is this unobtainium a bad thing? Expensive?
Mr Breeze -
Unobtainium = No Longer Available.
IF you can find one intact, and that's a BIG if, it would probably cost you over $1,000 just for the center section. Then you've got the two smaller pieces on either side to deal with, plus trying to find a decent rubber gasket - another part that's NLA.
Now you see why lots of folk put one of those stick 'n staple-type rear caps on the coach. . . Or fabricate something out of aluminum sheeting, plexiglass, lexan, etc. All three windows have double compound curves to them, making fabrication an interesting challenge.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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Is this unobtainium a bad thing? Expensive?
Mr Breeze -
Unobtainium = No Longer Available.
IF you can find one intact, and that's a BIG if, it would probably cost you over $1,000 just for the center section. Then you've got the two smaller pieces on either side to deal with, plus trying to find a decent rubber gasket - another part that's NLA.
Now you see why lots of folk put one of those stick 'n staple-type rear caps on the coach. . . Or fabricate something out of aluminum sheeting, plexiglass, lexan, etc. All three windows have double compound curves to them, making fabrication an interesting challenge.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Ok, thanks. When I did google the term, I came up with one definition which pretty much stated something next to impossible to find.....in so words. Then I had this funny feeling I was going to under go the old snipe hunting venture....LOL
Can a glass shop replace the flat windows that are cracked? Or is this also something special?
Anyway, good to know.
I have the vin for the one bus we are most likely to buy. If you would, could you possible give me the history on this bus? She is a bot older, but in pretty decent shape.
The vin is PD 4104--- 2488
Thanks again for your input!
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Mr Breeze -
All the side sash (windows) is flat safety glass, available from any commercial glass shop. Matching the OEM tint, however, might be more of a challenge. Best to take the entire window assembly into the shop so they can cut the glass for proper fit.
Peninsula Glass, aka Motion Windows, in Vancouver, WA, has complete replacement side window assemblies for most coaches. The slider mechanisms nowadays in most 04s are pretty well worn, so many busnuts replace the entire assembly. (Note that Peninsula's sliders only open 1/2 the window, unlike OEM. You choose which 1/2.) Peninsula also has them available w/o sliders, if you want to use such a style in certain areas. They also have many different tints available, too.
TTBOMK, there are no double-paned glass side sash for GM coaches.
PD4104-2488 was delivered new as fleet number M-1141 in May of 1957 to Southeastern Greyhound Lines, headquartered in Lexington, KY.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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Mr Breeze -
All the side sash (windows) is flat safety glass, available from any commercial glass shop. Matching the OEM tint, however, might be more of a challenge. Best to take the entire window assembly into the shop so they can cut the glass for proper fit.
Peninsula Glass, aka Motion Windows, in Vancouver, WA, has complete replacement side window assemblies for most coaches. The slider mechanisms nowadays in most 04s are pretty well worn, so many busnuts replace the entire assembly. (Note that Peninsula's sliders only open 1/2 the window, unlike OEM. You choose which 1/2.) Peninsula also has them available w/o sliders, if you want to use such a style in certain areas. They also have many different tints available, too.
TTBOMK, there are no double-paned glass side sash for GM coaches.
PD4104-2488 was delivered new as fleet number M-1141 in May of 1957 to Southeastern Greyhound Lines, headquartered in Lexington, KY.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Thank you for the name of the glass company. I have it bookmarked and will contact them once we purchase the bus.
Also, thank you for the bus information. It doesn't look like it had a big history, but still worthy of knowing where she began.
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Is this unobtainium a bad thing? Expensive?
Mr Breeze -
Unobtainium = No Longer Available.
IF you can find one intact, and that's a BIG if, it would probably cost you over $1,000 just for the center section. Then you've got the two smaller pieces on either side to deal with, plus trying to find a decent rubber gasket - another part that's NLA.
Now you see why lots of folk put one of those stick 'n staple-type rear caps on the coach. . . Or fabricate something out of aluminum sheeting, plexiglass, lexan, etc. All three windows have double compound curves to them, making fabrication an interesting challenge.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Ok, thanks. When I did google the term, I came up with one definition which pretty much stated something next to impossible to find.....in so words. Then I had this funny feeling I was going to under go the old snipe hunting venture....LOL
Can a glass shop replace the flat windows that are cracked? Or is this also something special?
Anyway, good to know.
I have the vin for the one bus we are most likely to buy. If you would, could you possible give me the history on this bus? She is a bot older, but in pretty decent shape.
The vin is PD 4104--- 2488
Thanks again for your input!
Mine is 2747 and in the same batch as yours...mine was the firstserial # in that batch that went to southeastern...they are brothers and were probably parked next to each othere every night...LOL
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Mr.B you need to hookup with Johns4104 I don't know if he is on this board or not but is on the BCM he lives in Apache Junction owns a 4104 very good on the 4104 and it's working nice young man, nice family and 2 young kids that are hustlers watch those 2 lol you will love his 4104 done in the 50's diners scheme on the inside very neat and I am sure he will help you any way he can he is very nice guy I like him a lot
good luck
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Is this unobtainium a bad thing? Expensive?
Mr Breeze -
Unobtainium = No Longer Available.
IF you can find one intact, and that's a BIG if, it would probably cost you over $1,000 just for the center section. Then you've got the two smaller pieces on either side to deal with, plus trying to find a decent rubber gasket - another part that's NLA.
Now you see why lots of folk put one of those stick 'n staple-type rear caps on the coach. . . Or fabricate something out of aluminum sheeting, plexiglass, lexan, etc. All three windows have double compound curves to them, making fabrication an interesting challenge.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Ok, thanks. When I did google the term, I came up with one definition which pretty much stated something next to impossible to find.....in so words. Then I had this funny feeling I was going to under go the old snipe hunting venture....LOL
Can a glass shop replace the flat windows that are cracked? Or is this also something special?
Anyway, good to know.
I have the vin for the one bus we are most likely to buy. If you would, could you possible give me the history on this bus? She is a bot older, but in pretty decent shape.
The vin is PD 4104--- 2488
Thanks again for your input!
Mine is 2747 and in the same batch as yours...mine was the firstserial # in that batch that went to southeastern...they are brothers and were probably parked next to each othere every night...LOL
Such a small world and it's amazing to follow the history of some of these buses.
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Mr.B you need to hookup with Johns4104 I don't know if he is on this board or not but is on the BCM he lives in Apache Junction owns a 4104 very good on the 4104 and it's working nice young man, nice family and 2 young kids that are hustlers watch those 2 lol you will love his 4104 done in the 50's diners scheme on the inside very neat and I am sure he will help you any way he can he is very nice guy I like him a lot
good luck
I will try to find him over there. I will be to tell him you sent me over and I will be sure to watch out for the two young hustlers.....LOL
Always looking to meet other Bus nuts, thank you for the lead!
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While I have some of you still in this thread, I wanted to ask another question regarding mileage.
How many miles are these engines good for, before they may need a rebuild?
The Hubodometer on the 57 we are considering reads 1508034.
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Mine is 2747 and in the same batch as yours...Mine was the first serial # in that batch that went to Southeastern...They are brothers and were probably parked next to each other every night...LOL
Gerry -
Actually, yours was in a later batch of buses built for Southeastern. 2747 thru 2756 (10 coaches) were all delivered in July of 1957, with yours sporting fleet number M-1210.
Taking a closer look at my delivery roster, it looks like every division of Greyhound bought 500 buses between them that were all delivered between April and August of 1957. Whew!!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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Hello Luvrbus-
I have a 4104 and am curious about the DDEC of which you speak. How might I get a bit more information on that engine? Can I upgrade my mechanical 6-71 to a DDEC? Thank you John Pearson
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Love our 4104 for the last 37 years, and hopefully for 37 more! Wow! wouldn't that be nice.....
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I have looked into that, and our bevel gears in the 4104 transfer case can't take the higher horse power. I thought some of them came with automatics, that would be a huge mod for sure. I've spoke with other owners and if you want to go faster, go with the 4106, buffalo now that girl will get with it.
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jpearson All you need to do is give Gene Russell a call.
Russell Diesel in Mill Springs North Carolina.
Uncle Ned
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Thank you