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Author Topic: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104  (Read 9146 times)

Offline Scott Simpson

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  • Gmc 4104-3981
1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« on: March 13, 2012, 06:44:18 PM »
Can you guys help me out ? I am looking for a bus and have found two I like.

 The first one is a 1960 Gmc 4104 just a shell.seller said that it runs good and just made it back from FL. 6-71 4 speed.

The second one is a 1983 Super Crown. California Prison bus . Cummings turbo Diesel 4speed auto.


I have researched the 4104 in the archives a lot ,but just started researching the Crown. I have a few questions.


Is the bus 12 or 24 volt?

Can the bus tow 7000+ pounds?   (I know they have a full frame a least back to the end of the rear axle .)

What kind of road speed can expect with the 4 speed auto ? ( I found that they are fast with a 10 speed road ranger.80+)

What kind of mileage can I expect with the auto?  ( Found 10-12  in the archives with standard trans.)

How is the ride?

Thanks Scott
West Kingston,RI PD 4104-3981

Offline gomer

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 09:41:37 PM »
Scott  first welcome aboard!
The 4104  has a v-drive transmission and only a auto matic will work v-drive also.  I have a 4104 4-speed and it will cruise easily at 70 with no problem.. I know little about the crowns but there are some NUTS on here that does know  LOL

Gomer 
Gomer

In God I Trust!

Offline luvrbus

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 10:16:00 PM »
Go with Crown one of the toughest buses ever built and the engine turns in the right direction lol

good luck

Offline gomer

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 10:38:00 PM »
Oh did forget to add  Don't know about pulling that much weight tho!!
Gomer

In God I Trust!

Offline Brian Evans

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2012, 08:17:26 AM »
Going out on a limb, I don't think a GM with a 4 speed and a 6-71 is going to like pulling a 7K trailer very much.  That's not a lot of engine, the 4 speed has a high first gear compared to others, the engine cradle install isn't well suited to a trailer hitch install for high weight without some structural hitch fabrication.  I think the Crown might have some better bones for a starting point.

Brian
1980 MCI MC-5C, now with 8V-71T/MT-647
Tatamagouche Nova Scotia

Offline siberyd

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2012, 10:58:25 AM »
All the Crowns I have driven (1952-1988 model years) were 12 volt systems. The automatic trans models averaged 5-8 mph. The higher number on the freeway.

Manual trans averaged 8-12mpg in fleets I worked with.

I have a 1957 Pd 4104 and it drives smoother than a Crown. Also on a Crown you have 2 sidewalls with windows sanwiched in between the walls.
1957 PD 4104-2240 Lawn Art

Offline pd41044039

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 11:19:03 AM »
I too own a 4104.  It his the "tall" rear ratio of 3.35:1 and so we go up big hills in second gear.  It tows a 5000 lb toad 4 wheels down but it knows it is back there.  Our smaller toad (VW Jetta) can't be felt up front. Due to the design of GMs where the engine cradle is hung from the back of the body just under the back window, it is not as sturdy as the Crown, which several have described as a logging truck with a bus body.  All that said, the P.O. of our bus towed a big cargo trailer and we have too at times.
Jim Bob the BusNut

Uglydog56

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 01:14:11 PM »
I believe all crowns are 12v.
I did quite a lot of research before I bought my Crown.  I was comparing 4106's when I was shopping.  I went with the crown so I could tow 10000# trailer since there's no frame on the GMC buses.  I valued the toughness and unique nature of the crown, and managed to sell my wife on it.  I also plan to boondock a fair amount once I'm retired from the military.

4104 pros:
More storage space.  Bays are these mythical things I fantasize about as I fight for every cubic inch of space in my interior.
Smoother ride.  Although I don't have any complaints about my crown's ride, I've heard the Jimmy's are much smoother, and I'm afraid to go ride in one and find out what I'm missing.
More room.  4104 has straighter walls - easier to convert, and you end up with more useable interior space.
More experience.  Lots of people have converted these or owned them, they are well known, and there are lots of floor plans to choose from.  Lots of good info when you have questions or problems.
Cool factor.   Old transit buses are neat, and they have a certain aura to them.  That old apple pie america thing.

4104 cons:
V drive and all that other rear end drivetrain weirdness that I don't fully understand.  I'm also not a fan of detroits only because no one knows how to work on them anymore.
No real frame - not an issue if you're flat towing a prius, but lots of stories of cracked buses from towing or not bracing them up properly for a roof raise.
You need to go to a bus/rv place for work due to the unique nature of the parts/layout.  Which can result in raping of the checking account quickly.


Crown pros:
Sports car of buses!  I can take 55mph corners at 70, if the wife isn't with me.  ;D
Bigger brakes.  I think brakes are more important than power when it comes to towing.  Crowns have class 8 truck brakes.  Rumour is the 40 footers can lock them up on the highway, although I don't know why you'd want to.  My bus will practically stop in the length of itself.
Maneuverable.   My 35 footer will turn tighter than my dually pickup.  The 40 footers, not so much though.
A real frame.   Although you have to fab the rear part, you have something to build off of.
Uses standard truck parts.   You can swap in modern truck transmissions with overdrive, more gears, whatever.  Same with axle ratios.  You can make the bus as fast or as torquey as you want.  You can get brake parts and everything else at any truck repair place, no need to find bus specialty spots.
Aerodynamic.  Every crown guy I've talked to gets better mileage than what I have heard about in the Jimmy's.  I get 10 even running 68-70 in the hills using the floorboard cruise control.
Cummins engine.  The 855 cummins is the chevy 350 of HDT engines.  They were used in trucks, tractors, combines, cranes, generators, everything.  Also the govt used about a gazillion in various vehicles as well.  So parts are everywhere and cheap as it gets, although that won't last forever, as fewer people are working these engines.  But normal people can still work on these - you don't have to cross your fingers that you'll only break down within a 100 mile radius of Don Fairchild.

Crown cons:
Storage.  I don't even know what that word even MEANS.
Skoolie stigma.   Some rv parks don't like skoolies, and even though your bus wasn't one, it's something you have to overcome.  Resale value suffers as well.
Short people only.  I think a roof raise is pretty much mandatory for anyone over 5'7".
Gulmite fasteners.  ARRGGGH!
Auto trans.  I don't know that much about the autos.  I think that one would be a MT644.  I'm not sure how much towing capacity it has.  However, more people can drive an auto, so there is that.

Sorry for the long post.  But you asked.  More people on here can shed more light on the GMC's than I probably can.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 12:46:59 AM by Uglydog56 »

Offline chrome dome

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 05:07:51 PM »
Inspected a few prison buses (which people in the know said we would not like) and it seems that in warm climates if that was where they were used, to transport prisoners, that there is a body odor and exceretment smell that will resurface when it gets wet or hot out that you will never get rid of. also to strip the inside if not done already is a PITA because of all the panels and wire that has to come out with tamper proof bolts and SS poles. FWIW

Dave5Cs
"Perfect Frequency "1979 MCI MC5CSaudi 6V-71,7067-7527 Spec230 644MT Allison
1998 Jeep TJ 4x4 Toed, Somewhere in the USA, Fulltiming
 Congressmen should wear uniforms, like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors

Offline Brandon

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 01:46:36 PM »
Great info here!

I just wanted to add to the comment about interior height!

I'm 6'7 and every time someone asks me why I didn't just buy a school bus with more current running gear/engine/etc. instead of my 1955 GM Old Look (TDH-4512) transit, I have to remind them. The interior roof-to-floor height is 6'7" to 6'5" depending upon where you are standing...usable for someone like me.

When your rolling home won't let you stand up straight inside, it's not much of a home :P


-Brandon
www.theghostbus.org
1955 TDH-4512 'The Ghost'

Uglydog56

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2012, 02:32:44 PM »
I looked at that crown on the ebay.  It looks a little rough.  290 Cummins is pretty cool though.  There's quite a bit of work to do there.  Might want to take a closer look at the 4104.  Do you have a link?

Offline chuckllb

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2012, 09:23:16 PM »
Re "Crown Storage...use your imagination.  we have far more than we need....for two folks... ;D

Have no knowledge, much less conception,  about a "Gulmite" fastener.

Ours is a 220, Turbo, 10 speed RR, lock in and Icy axle. Have gotten 12mpg.

Short folks only! :-\..Under 6'1".

As RJ Long says" built like a tank".

FWIW
RCB




Offline Barn Owl

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 12:47:12 AM »
The Crown will do much better if you get off pavement. Better ground clearance, tough and simple. There is nothing to be afraid of with a V drive. Putting an auto in a 4104 is a massive undertaking of time and money so not worth it. A 4106 on the other hand is cake. If you have the time keep looking there are good deals popping up all of the time.
L. Christley - W3EYE Amateur Extra
Blue Ridge Mountains, S.W. Virginia
It’s the education gained, and the ability to apply, and share, what we learn.
Have fun, be great, that way you have Great Fun!

Offline TomC

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2012, 12:03:14 PM »
If you want a cheap conversion bus-look for a transit bus.  I have an AMGeneral 40ft x 102 wide and 6'10" interior height.  If I were doing it again I would get a Gillig Phantom high floor transit.  Like my AMGeneral, the high transits have 22" of under floor space.  And it is a rear engine with inline or T drive using a normal truck engine. Just to show you-on my bus I have my 130gal water tank, 2-10gal elec water heaters, 2-water pumps, hot and cold water manifold under the rear queen bed.  Under the floor in the very rear is a 2ft square compartment where the A/C valves were-great for storing oils and coolants near the engine. Then working forward I have 45 gal black, 85gal gray, 2-8D deep cycles, 130gal fuel, 2-31 starting batteries, 20gal propane, and a storage bay that is 66" long x 99" wide x 22" tall.  Next to the driver's seat like a front engine is the 10kw Powertech Diesel genset with remote radiator under the driver's seat.  I have 3 roof tops, and with 1x2 horizontal fir strips screwed into the frame, have 2.25" spray foam insulation.  Replaced the transit windows with Peninsula glass.  Converted air steering to Sheppard power and have a 8V-71 Tubo with V730 auto. 
With the Gillig Phantom and T drive, should be easy to reinforce the rear engine frame to tow a 7,000lb trailer.

A Crown is good-and if you get one with the straight 4 piece windshield-will never have to worry about breaking a windshield.  You can convert either a NTC or N14 electronic Cummins to run on its' side.  With 4spd HT740 Allison-it will be bullet proof.  Good Luck, TomC

Offline rnmadventures

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Re: 1983 Super Crown or 1960 GMC 4104
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2012, 02:03:42 AM »
I know a fellow that has an unconverted 4106 for sale. My brother got it a few years ago and I got it from him and did some horse trading with the current owner which didn't do anything with it that I know of. I know it was driven from east Texas to Southeast Texas. I drove it around hte block once and it drove good. It has been sitting for at least 6 or 7 years now. I have considered buying it to have an extra 4106, but decided not to right now (I think my DW would think I lost my mind). You could probably get it for $2000-$2500. Let me know if you are interested and I will find his contact info. Here are a few pics.







Mike & Rosemarie
PD4106-2626