BNO BBS - BNO's Bulletin Board System
TOPICS => THE BOARD => Topic started by: Scott Crosby on August 17, 2013, 08:21:27 AM
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I never knew what they looked like or how they were packaged, but my manual discuses the cold weather starting procedure and inserting a starting fluid capsule into the little cup on the intake. I found some on ebay, that shows the can they came in and the actual capsules. I thought it was interesting to see.
These look like dried cranberries but old things get wrinkly :)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVRON-STARTING-FLUID-CAPSULES-IN-A-CAN-/200952074031?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec9ad4f2f
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Scott
We used to use capsules like these at Gray Coach but later went to an automatic ether injecting set up. I use the automatic set up on my bus when it gets down to 40 degrees or so. The ether comes in a cylinder exactly like a small propane torch cylinder.
Bill
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/17/3uve8yta.jpg)
Not starting fluid related but In the us we have stupid gas cans that the EPA mandated and they suck. One of their many problems is they don't have a vent so they gurgle and suck air and take 5x as long to empty. They are supposed to be spill proof except I spill more with these than I ever did with a simple can. Anyway today I put bicycle tire valves in with the Schrader valves removed as vents. Just remove the cap and now I have a vent.
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Those old starting capsules probably won't work any more. Being gell the ether has evaporated rite through the walls. They should be round and full.
Sent from my C5155 using Tapatalk 2
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Clearly they are not good... I'm not buying them But they were neat to see. Never would have guessed they came in a quart sized paint type can.
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Many a cold, dark morning at -20 or 30 in Banff and Jasper, had to take my gloves off to find one rolling around on the dash, or at the bottom of my bag, and press it in to that little cup on the air horn. And starting fluid is cold on the finger tips! Then you get to breathe diesel fumes for a few minutes while doing your pre-trip with 4 or 5 other buses next to you running cold. Then you drive a cold bus to the first pickup hopefully in time to get a coffee...
Those starting capsules do not bring back the best memories of bus driving, LOL.
JC
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I can see kids thinking they were candy too and somehow not being allowed today..
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If you put a spray nozzle like what's on WD40 with the extension, you can just spray ether into the center of the ether cup. Good Luck, TomC
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Just to be clear... I know how to spray starting fluid in... I just never saw the capsules ever... Never ever never have I seen capsules of starting fluid, it is a dead technology, I guess it's been extinct for about as long as I have been alive! :) I just thought it was neat to see the fossils of what they used to be. I'm not going to use them, not going to buy them, not going to try and inject my own gummy bears to squeeze into the cup, I just thought it was intresting to see how they looked and how they came in a can. It looks like a pain in the butt to deal with, but it does get the dosage right and might have keept a few hill jacks from spraying a pint in at a time and damaging a Diesel engine with too much fluid by thinking more is always better.
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Any time you need starting aids, it means there is something wrong with your bus; it is too far north.
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Years ago, I used either on hard starting engines too, today I no longer use it, use carburetor cleaner for a good start with out the abuse of either, meaning a softer explosion. Once you have been around a DDC that requires starting fluid when it is over 150 f to get it to start, you figure it had been weened to death on either. Most folks know every time you us either, you are reducing the temper of the compression ring(s) making it provide less compression making little harder to start. Give it a thought.
This ain't book learning, just fact.
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Scott, you are Da Man!
I have fought with those cursed EPA fuel jugs for years, growling every time I had to hold 40 lbs. of fuel up chest high & spill it as I let more air into the can. I will be doing all of mine ASAP with the valve stems.
How much air do you put in them??? LOL.
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Make sure it's empty and no fumes... Drill a 1/2" hole. Air drill is no sparks if you have one. The. Fish a wire through the hole and out the filler. Run the wire through the valve and bend it to hook the valve then pull if into position and pull it tightly into place. Pull wire out and you are good to go. If you don't have the valve tool a small standard screwdriver will insert and screwing the air valve.
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I have a qt of Chevron capsules they look new the price is on the lid $1.19 in 1958 wow,my granddad never used those he thought the price was outrageous for capsules when you could buy 100% either from a drug store for $.49 a 1/2 pint at that time
I would be afraid to even try and buy either from a drug store nowadays the feds would probably have you before one could make it to the front door,fwiw there is not enough either in the starting fluids of today that would hurt a engine IMO
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Speaking of drugstores, I don't know if every state is like this, but due to Meth drug makers, buying a box of cold medicine here in Indiana makes you feel like your buying crack or something... You have to fill out paperwork, they copy your ID and I was afraid to ask for a second box just to keep one at home and one at work. Buying a simple over the counter medication is a real pain in the butt and you go on a watch list to make sure your not buying from multiple locations. I sure hope it's reduced meth drug usage because it's a crazy process. When I picked up my kids Vicodin prescription when they had thier wisdom teeth pulled, I didn't feel even 1/10 as much like a pill popping drug user than I did buying a single box of over the counter cold medicine.
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Scott -
VERY clever idea to use a valve stem as a vent on the gas can! Kudos to you!
I'm playing taxi while a friend has some tire work done on their Suburban next weekend, will have to ask the shop for a couple of stems.
Thanks for sharing!
;)
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Great idea with the valve stems, I'm all in on that.
Here I go on my ether rant, anyone who knows me knows what is coming next. Do not take my rant personal, I mean anyone!
Ether will not hurt your bus if used correctly! Buses do not become ether addicts! If you are having to use it on a regular basis you have a problem ether is getting you through and is covering up. Why did you start to use ether? Because you couldn't get it started. Why? Low compression, air in fuel line, bad fuel, weak batteries, sitting at absolute zero for a month, etc...... Instead of finding out what was wrong and fixing the problem you take the cheep and easy way out and ether it again the next time, and the next time again, and on and on. Then you surmise that your ether use is the villain because you cannot start without it. You conclude that if only you had never used it the first time you wouldn't be having to use it all of the time. Oh you think that little can of cheat'n-easy has bit you in the ass, but it is not true. It is only doing what it does best, covering up the real problem and getting you by on the cheep. A fresh tight engine fires off in half a crank without ether because it doesn't have a problem, get it? I would suggest that a big dose of diesel fuel cylinder wash down, crank case oil contamination is harmful, therefore I ether. If ether is a killer then my bus would have been dead many hundreds of starts long ago before I got it. Growing up on a farm everything got ether; tractors, gas lawnmowers, re-seating tires onto rims, bees nest, etc. It was as handy as a hammer and a screwdriver, truly an original multi-tool. Embrace it, learn to love it, don't fear it, it is just a tool for crying out loud. That little cup on top of that green chunk of iron is there for a reason, not for looks. Just like you learned how to use a hammer on a nail and not on glass, how to handle a loaded gun, there is a proper and improper way to use ether, figure it out.
Now I know how this goes, everyone has a fright "story" on how ether destroyed a motor somewhere. I have seen and heard them all, many quite the legendary tale worthy enough to be told around any campfire with a full moon. Somehow, even though I brush my teeth with it and use it as a milk substitute on my morning cereal, I have become the only individual on the planet that has never personally seen a homicide by ether and I don't care. Why? Because of my real life experience with the stuff. If someone blew up a motor somewhere they didn't use it correctly (like shooting an entire can in and hydrolocking), or they used it where they should not have, like an engine with indirect injection via a prechamber with glow plugs comes to mind, but like everything in life, there are exceptions for those also.
Proud unapologetic non-ashamed ether user, can you tell?
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W3EYE,
I highly recommend a very heavy dose of either to start your engine, it keeps the mechanics employeed.
Once you run into an engine that requires either to restart after running 20 minutes while testing and requires more either to restart while at operating temp and has very little resistance to cranking, it tends to make a beleiver out of me. As they say, Give me mo.
In our business, we do not use nor buy either, instead we use carb cleaner, it works good and gives a much softer explosion, not so hard on compression rings.
Seems, Most folks do not realize everytime you use either, you take a little temper out of the top compression rings, eventually as the compression keeps decending, more either is required, that is where the term "Weened on Either " comes from
So I am tickled either way ;D
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Ether is an alternate fuel , and was built into the engine for normal use as an alternate fuel.
The ONLY time an alternate fuel is needed is below freezing for a cold start.
Then it works better than repeated cranking , and when its very cold only Ether will do.
Of course if you leave a block heater in O,nite , Ether will never be required.
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Space aliens, Loch Ness Monster, Sasquatch, needlessly frighting people about the use of ether, all fall into the same category. I stand firm behind what I posted that the proper use of ether does not harm your engine. I agree block heaters, oil pan heaters, heated bus barns, charcoal pans under the engine, living in tropical climates also work. Again I ask: Why did you start using ether to begin with? See my previous post for the answer.
I am not a metallurgy expert so there might be an explanation for the loss of temper that I do not understand. The knowledge of metals I do have though doesn't lend itself to the loss of temper under the conditions that have been described. Please post some more information supporting that end result. I am not against changing my beliefs when I am shown otherwise. My head is hard, but my eyes and ears are still open. Again I refer to my previous post of many, many years of using ether as taught to me by many, many of old timers.
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Why don't you guys just read the starting fluid can you will be surprised how little either it contains,now the capsules that was a 100% liquid either 4 or 5 of those not used right would send a engine into engine heaven
Starting fluid and Either are 2 different animals I use neither, the addiction people talk about sometime is true because both the starting fluid and either were abused and melted the top compression to the piston on the old 2 strokes
I rebuilt a 4-71 on all 4 cylinders the top ring was welded to the piston so I ask the guy have you been using to much starting fluid or either on this engine his reply was no I never use the stuff I only use gasoline
Today's starting fluid is not going to hurt the engine if used right I just choose not to use it
I have taken my wife's hair drier and started my 8v92 in -20 degree in Nev one time when the block heater quit ran it for about 5 minutes in the air intake spun the engine a couple rounds did it again for 5 minutes it fired right up
The compression get low enough on these old engine sometime starting fluid is the only answer till it gets rebuilt JMO
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I admit to not knowing how much ether is in a can. I have suspected that the formulations have changed over the years because it doesn't "pop" quite the same when used in tires now.
WG4T, I didn't realize that was a call sign for some reason until you used mine, and QRZ.com showed we were neighbors. The next time I go to Richmond (not very often) without the children I will give you a shout and maybe we could do lunch, kick a bus tire, or I can demonstrate how little I know about Amateur Radio and a lot about passing the test. I do a few emergency nets and that is about it. Big plans, not much radio money, and no time. If I live to see retirement and children surviving on their own, the plans are to do it right. 73
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I had dead batteries once on the bus and needed a jump start when it was around 30 degrees. The guy who came out wanted to use some sort of ether or starting fluid. I told him no, just hook up to the batteries. It started just fine without any starting fluid with a jump start. It probably wouldn't have hurt to use starting fluid, but I wasn't going to chance it.
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The real damage from starting fluid is done when someone runs out of fuel, refills , and is too lazy to bleed the fuel system.
So they will crank a few min with starting fluid (warm engine) to get it started , and do BIG damage as a result.
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In theory is the real problem the early autoignition that's aprox 200 deg less and it's detonation happens earlier on the compression upstroke? I know autoignition is aprox 300 deg F with starting fluid compared to 500ish F with diesel. I don't know what pressures those temps occur at but it is not a controlled injection, the fuel air mix is all over the place from cylinder to cylinder and it's along for the ride on the whole stroke. Just thinking about how it works is ugly. If I was a piston I wouldn't like to smell it coming...oh shit "hold on to your rings guys this is going to be a rough ride" - Regardless if it's good or bad a Block heater is always better.
If I lived in a crazy cold area it would be fun to take a small pump and a propane tankless instant hot water heater. Plumb it into the cooling system and turn on and circulate for five min. It would be like a cheep webasto. Good for the impatient people or the ones that don't have a way to use 1500w of electricity for 6-8 hrs. At the airport we just used torpedo heaters with a couple metal hoses that entered the engine compartment for 15 min. It really did work great. I used a small 1500w electric ceramic fan overnight and that worked good too. It is amazing the things people do to heat up detroits. The first time I heard of the charcoal can under the engine I thought someone was kidding. Have a winter clam bake and park the bus over the bake. Wrap the engine with an electric blanket over night. I really like using my oil pan warmers too, the warm oil is an extra little loving and snuggly hug to my pistons.
I'm just talking nonsence here though... It's good, it's bad, what-ever... But people sure would use a lot less of it if they had to squeeze it out of a capsule a few ounces at a time. Getting up to change the TV channel then move the rabbit ears and sitting back down to watch a show vs sitting on a couch with a remote and flipping away. :)
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Winter is coming people will get to try all different methods :-* DD even sold some very interesting gadgets like the military used the fire inside the block I removed some but never tried one,the air heater at the intake wasn't bad some engine manufactures still use that system 1 big glow plug
I have one of those off a 6L-71,the 53 series with glow plugs in the head was the best they came up with a very popular system today yep the 53 series 2 stroke had glow plugs and with the 23:1 compression there was no need for it 8)
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:-* DD even sold some very interesting gadgets like the military used the fire inside the block I removed some but never tried one,
If you can find one for the 6-71 air box let me know.
For folks with no electric , there are truck propane pre heaters that would work.
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I removed the military system from my 8V-71T so I know how it worked. It used a spark plug fitted in the top of the air box, using the same hole in the block behind the fuel pump that an after-cooled engine uses for the coolant line to the aftercooler. It had a high pressure pump system that injected a mist of diesel fuel into the airbox and the spark plug had a coil for ignition, and the mist would explode/burn inside of the air box. I considered that a bomb waiting to happen, and threw it all out. I might have left the spark plug in to plug the hole, though. Does that mean I have a hybrid engine now (spark ignition/diesel hybrid?)
Brian
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Sounds very similar to how a space heater works. I think it would be an interesting add on.